Starting Zero Carb Trial


(Complete legend) #41

World-class hair-splitting


(Edith) #42

WI’m nearing the end of my first week. I was already dairy free and for the most part nut free when I impulsively decided to try zero carb. I have been educated by the forum carnivores, and I guess what I’m really doing is keto with almost no carbs.

I have used olive and avocado oils this week, seasonings, and I’m still drinking ginger tea with some lime juice twice a day. Besides that, I’ve eaten beef, pork, chicken, and eggs. I even ate some chicken liver. The recipe I used made it palatable. Not a fav, though, that’s for sure. I don’t think I could eat kidney. I feed it to my dogs and I just can’t stand the smell. I’m hoping a variety of meats and liver will be well rounded enough. I do make bone broth whenever I have enough bones stored up. I probably don’t make it enough for if I was going to stay carnivore. I’ve been dairy free for years, so I do take CitriCal daily.

I’m going to do this for at least another week. I have a weekend away coming up with my girlfriends. I think I should be able to stay mostly zero carb except for our evening at the fancy restaurant. I will eat the veggie that comes with my meal. I think I will even give it the entire month as suggested by @CaptainKirk.

I’ve dropped five pounds this week, and that’s with having my period. That has NEVER happened. I’m always up several pounds when I’m menstruating.

That makes me wonder: do I lose water weight when going from keto to no carb because I shed excess muscle glycogen that I had stored up even while following a keto diet, or did the veggies cause inflammation and water retention which I shed once I stopped eating them?

Oh yes, one more thing. Currently, I still have take in my 1.5 teaspoons of salt and 1/2 teaspoon of potassium chloride each day or I get muscle cramps during the night.


(Kirk Wolak) #43

First, “Congratulations” you are doing FABULOUS…
Second, I still drink a squeeze of lemon juice or lime juice in my homemade seltzer.
Third, I did have to give up coffee, tea, bacon, etc for 21 days, but I AM BACK!!! Test over! (It’s actually an amazing feeling to know I could do it, bacon has been my source of never ending will power. As long as I can have 1-2 lbs of bacon the next day I eat, I can go days without eating, or removing anything else)

Your “did I lose water weight because of losing muscle glycogen?”
Yes, that’s what I think it is. Because my muscles seemed to get smaller, but I didn’t really lose strength/muscle. And body builders will carb load FOR the puffiness it gives their muscles (swelling them up)

It’s a fair question. My biceps, arms, legs ALL Shrunk. My watch bands are way too big. I went from 3XL shirts to a MEDIUM (OMG). Because the long sleeves were saggy on a large (sizes have gotten bigger)… So I THOUGHT I must have lost muscle. But the dexa scan said (Yeah, a small amount over your entire body). But I maintain a Slow-Slow weight lifting routine. If I lost “real muscle”, not the water in the muscle, I should have lost strength, right? (I did not. My weights/times just kept moving up, no back sliding)

I now believe ALL carbs are evil. Also, check your BP, I bet it is even more normalized/lower. Mine went lower than ever (100s/70s) vs 125/80 vs (150s/90s+ when I was eating CARBAGE).

Going carnivore is like fasting. It’s a plateau buster to me. I used to suffer through plateaus… Now I fast through them with plenty of walking.

Also, I do Slow-Slow only twice a week (about 25 minutes or less each time), and I JUST started “HIIT/Tabata” on Wednesday. I will be once a week for 2-3 months until I feel my body is ready for a bit more.

So, keep it up. Yes, consider that ginger and other things could still be hitting you. And ENJOY the time with the gals. (You couldn’t pay me to eat vege just because it came with the meal. Ask them to plate it separately, take a piece and offer to the friends… LOL) Although I will have a piece of brocolli, cauliflower, or sweet potato here or there.

Thanks for posting your details, it helps everyone who comes later…


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #44

WoE = diet it’s the same term.


(Ilana Rose) #45

An elimination diet implies a diet that you will eventually start reintroducing other foods to. Carnivore is a way of eating when people choose it as a permanent solution to discovering that plants don’t seem to be doing them any favours for one reason or another, be it physical health, mental health, or weight control.

No one stays on an egg fast forever, people do with carnivory.


(Robert C) #46

I think I was looking at it in a more simplistic way.

A diet tells you what to eat/not eat.
No turmeric for a person on Carnivore (eat all the brains you want).
No beef for a Vegan (down those potatoes).

Either a Carnivore (easier) or a Vegan (harder) can follow the Keto way of eating (manipulate macros to deal with hormones) but could instead, simply follow their dietary restrictions and still be called Carnivore or Vegan.

I guess some people would like to equate the terms but, I think it is an important difference - that Keto does not identify acceptable / forbidden foods when everything else does (I cannot think of another thing - other than SAD - that works this way).

Also, there is no Carnivore WOE acceptable to a Vegan but there is a Keto WOE acceptable to a Vegan.


(Ilana Rose) #47

So Jews and Muslims are on elimination diets if they don’t eat pork and shellfish?

An elimination diet means something and it’s not just any diet that excludes stuff.


(Robert C) #48

I was differentiating between diet vs. WOE.

I think Carnivore can be used as an elimination diet effectively as well as an ongoing diet.


(Ilana Rose) #49

Ok, I was responding to what you’d said here.

I agree Carnivore can be used as an elimination diet but that’s not how most people who refer to themselves as Carnivore are using it.


(Ilana Rose) #50

I actually do understand the distinction you’ve been trying to make in this thread. I think the problem is that you are using ‘WOE’ in a way that’s different from how it’s generally intended when used on these forums.

People are generally meaning that keto isn’t just a short term dietary intervention for weight loss which is followed by going back to one’s old habits. It’s more of a dietary lifestyle change that results in permanent changes to your hormonal milieu. This is exactly how many people do Carnivore as well.


(Edith) #51

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, one of the definitions of diet is: habitual nourishment. Any of the above ways of eating could count as a diet based upon that definition.


(Robert C) #52

If that is the way you think of WOE then, I can understand wanting to call Carnivore a WOE.

But, for me, that has not been my understanding (i.e. that the “Keto diet” becomes the “Keto WOE” simply by sustaining it longer, including after hormonal changes) but I see what you mean.

For me, when a newbie is too macro focused / calorie focused / initial weight loss focused etc. the fact that Keto is a WOE is emphasized to get them to think of the unique characteristics of Keto.

  • Fat adaptation
  • Eating to satiety
  • Focus on increasing metabolism
  • Potentially measuring ketones (vs. weighing / measuring food)
  • Battling insulin resistance
  • Keto flu
  • Induction

That is why I thought people have been calling Keto a WOE.
It is not just a switch flip like Carnivore (eating meat vs. not eating meat on any given day means you are Carnivore or not Carnivore that day).

As for Carnivore making changes to the hormonal milieu - in my mind that is just because it is Keto (same as a Vegan obtaining those changes through Keto).

Finally, to me, Carnivore’s claim-to-fame (that Keto cannot claim) is the possibility of really improving some people’s lives (Mikhaila Peterson, Amber O’Hearn etc.).


(Norma Laming) #53

You really don’t think there are health benefits from being in ketosis?


(Ilana Rose) #54

I guess I imagine that if loads of people are really getting various additional NSV’s with a carnivore diet than there are likely at least some hormonal changes. Especially when you consider the effects on mental health that so many who were keto before report.


(hottie turned hag) #55

@RobC Citing my n=1 experience, I manifested new positive changes after eliminating both cheese and vegetables to break a stall (was 122, now 116, goal 110) after almost 2yr of keto (with great success both weight wise and health wise; I honestly didn’t think it could get any better) and I believe the additional improvements that resulted are from addressing my increased inability to efficiently tolerate even the small amts of carbs in the cheese and veg I was consuming. It seemed the smaller I got the less carbs I could efficiently utilize.

I believe going to almost zero (yes I know meat and eggs have some carbs) carb intake did further regulate me endocrinologically as the unexpected and unlooked-for results fit with that theory.

They are:
sleeping through an entire night (heretofore unprecedented; I hadn’t done so since childhood)
chronic dry lips, gone
elevated mood; decreased irritability (I am an irritable, impatient sort by nature)
perfect BMs (I expected constipation. Nope.)
even better mental clarity (this had vastly improved already so was floored when it got EVEN BETTER)


(Ilana Rose) #56

Omg, I’ve just been reporting this exact thing on my accountability thread as the first obvious change since the switch. Prior to five days ago (when I started) I was waking many times every night. It wasn’t even something I’d considered might change! I’m thrilled to hear someone else has noted this effect!!


(hottie turned hag) #57

@Ilana_Rose #twinning again :two_women_holding_hands:
Yep every time I run across your posts I’m all like heckyeah, hellyeah, me too, same :grin:


(Ilana Rose) #58

It’s seriously funny!!! :rofl:


(Kirk Wolak) #59

Yeah, the one thing the Vegans have is branding.
Vegan, Ovo Lacto Vegan, etc.

We could use:
Elimination Carnivore
Healing Carnivore
Ovo Carnivore

But I think diet means 90% of what you eat. I am KETO/Carnivore in my mind. I wont eat enough liver/protein to kick me out of ketosis! Sorry. Being Keto comes first.

I will also have MCT Oil. Oh, but that’s not carnivore. And there is my problem with the tight labeling.

Pure Carnivore
100% Carnivore
90% Carnivore
KETO/Carnivore
Mostly Carnivore
Dirty Carnivore
Dirty Keto
Clean Keto

But we are going to need to either NOT worry about it, or define these terms in much better ways. I think the 3 key things are:

100% Carnivore -> Mikhalia Peterson (don’t eat anything else)
Pure Carnivores -> Only Meat, but seasonings, eggs, no dairy
KETO/Carnivore -> Adds Dairy, and tiny amounts of cooking “aids”, etc?
Dirty Keto/Carnivore -> Adds nuts, artificial sweeteners, etc.

For me, it’s simply important to label so you understand where people are coming from, and their base decisions. I tried to help someone who was stalled. BUT She refused to give up her STEVIA drink she drank all day, every day because water sucked for her.

If she was forced to say “I am Dirty Keto” instead of “I am Keto”, the implication of her decision would be apparent, and I could have avoided wasting my time and hers.

Because if you are stalled on “Dirty Keto”, try “Clean Keto!” Duh!
If you are stalled on Keto, try Keto/Carnivore and/or IF…

I hope we find a way to get to the language.

Zero Carb is still floating out there. Challenge for me. Liver has carbs, and so does cheese. So what exactly does it mean!


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #60

WoE is only used because people are frightened of the stigma that’s now attached to diet.