Sous Vide, Plastic and Estrogenic Activity

(AnnaLeeThal) #21

The only raw chicken I’m gonna eat is eggs. :joy:

(G. Andrew Duthie) #22

Part of the problem with research like this is that it can be extremely hard to tease out the facts that matter.

It’s one thing to say that plastics leach estrogenic compounds. OK, fine. But much like research that purports to show that certain sweeteners cause cancer in rats or mice, the larger question is whether, at the levels that actually occur in real-world use, there is any cause for concern.

Ideally, I tend to cook as much as possible in metal or glass, and I’ve seen enough to be concerned about Teflon that I no longer use that for non-stick cookware.

But so far, while I’ve seen plenty that is suggestive of potential problems with EA compounds and plastic, I’ve yet to see any solid science that demonstrates a causal link between this purported problem and actual health effects in humans. So I’m leery, as the reality is that lack of evidence doesn’t prove there isn’t a problem. But at the same time, if we spend all of our time fearfully trying to avoid every potential danger, we’re going to miss out on a lot of good stuff in the process.

I’m also a bit skeptical of the first link on the basis of the fact that so many of the products that are mentioned as part of the article are affiliate links from which the author stands to make commissions. When a scary subject and profits are combined, my BS radar goes off.

So in the end, I think we have to wait for better science to know if this is truly something we should worry about. In the short term, I think it’s reasonable to consider looking for lower-risk products to use for sous vide, but I don’t see the evidence yet that cooking sous vide should be avoided completely.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #23

As the saying goes, “the dose makes the poison.”

Without a reliable science-based measure of how much BPA or EA substances are safe, we are all just guessing. The fact of the matter is that there are many things that are detectable in our blood or urine that, in sufficient quantities, could be very harmful.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being cautious, and I certainly won’t argue with your decision not to cook in plastic. It’s your health, and I absolutely respect your (and anyone else’s) right to decide what goes into your body.

But I also think it’s important to exercise a certain amount of skepticism when it comes to claims of harm that don’t (as far as I can tell) have any basis in experimental evidence. What I see typically is correlation studies and assertions made based on the presence of a substance, neither of which is particularly sound science.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #24

I don’t think that there is sufficient evidence to provide a clear answer to that question. I certainly hope that will change, but at the moment, the vast majority of what I see is insufficient to draw conclusions, despite the many folks who are hyping the issue (many of whom conveniently have a solution to sell you).

(Guardian of the bacon) #25

Risk vs reward. Is it more harmful to the environment and ultimately our bodies to drive an automobile vs riding a horse or a bicycle? Without reading any scientific articles I’m pretty sure the answer is yes. Yet most of us choose to drive the car because it saves time, is more comfortable, more convenient etc. Some still choose to ride the bike or horse because their priorities tip the scales in that direction.

There is risk reward in nearly every decision we make in life. It’s up to each of us to determine towards which our personal scales tip. Personally I think there are many more serious risk factors involved in eating from our modern food supply than what might leach from a food grade quality plastic at very low temperatures. If you are really concerned about making what you eat safe only eat that which you grow yourself. Otherwise you really have no idea what might be contaminating the food you eat.

(Larry Lustig) #26

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Not just a marketing strategy for Microsoft any more.

(To be fair, Microsoft has been making efforts to get out of the FUD market in the last few years)

(Krishna) #27

Sous vide pedi?

(Meeping up the Science!) #28

In all honesty, we probably accumulate more plastic from eating fast food than sous vide. I guarantee you that the flame retardant on sofas probably is more dangerous than sous vide cooking, as well. There’s also the question of cumulative harm.

Modern life is full of “toxic things,” however, that many of us do not think about, or unaware of. Sous vide probably ranks on the very bottom of the list.

#29

I agree. we all have to choose our battles and i choose to let my sous vide have her way with me :roll_eyes:

(Sarah Barnbrook) #30

At this stage I’m willing to roll the dice and allow sous vide to fulfil my destiny. As there are options to cook without having the food vacuum packed, you could definitely tinker with other cooking vessels (whether that is a mason jar or perhaps silicone moulded pouches, if the matter was really pressing for you.

Like many said, I think you sort of have to pick your battles. I choose to wear synthetic free clothing, because I think it’s healthier for my body, but you may think you look fantastic in spandex. Who is right?! We’ll never know!! :wink:

(Mike Cislo) #31

@Carl_Franklin’s other podcast has a special segment where they “geek-out” on topics of interest. I’m wondering if this would be a topic that could make it (plastics and how they could leach into your body) think it involves everyone, and could be interesting and a public service! :slight_smile:

(Mike W.) #32

Doesn’t it also have to do with what temp you’re hearing the plastic to? Most Sous Vide is under 165*.

#33

I think you’re focusing too much on the first article.The actual study that peaked this topic isn’t marketing anything. Yes, some are trying to sell alternatives to FoodSaver bags, but as the 2011 study showed, even silicone can leech EA chemicals into our food. EACs have shown that they do pose health problems at certain levels. There just hasn’t been enough research to determine what that level is.

#34

In the study, all plastic still leeched chemicals, even when they weren’t “stressed” (IE exposed to sunlight, microwaved, or heated up).

(G. Andrew Duthie) #35

To be clear. I’m not saying that there is nothing to this. I don’t generally cook in plastic (for example, I don’t re-heat food in plastic containers) because glass is an alternative, and I’d rather err on the side of caution. But we don’t currently have sufficient evidence to know what a safe level of exposure is, and my point was that there are plenty of folks who are more than willing to exploit the uncertainty to sell products.

I think the issue merits a certain amount of caution, and I hope that more research is done in this area, and product manufacturers take the findings into account. But at the moment, as others have observed. we’re in the position of weighing the desired benefits of sous vide cooking against uncertain downsides of using plastic in this way. Each individual is going to come down at a different point in balancing those.

#36

The fact that most people have no idea about these chemicals and how they can effect development (in children especially) is why I think we need to have this discussion. For instance, I was not aware of the dangers flame retardants pose to our health. But with one little sentence on your part, and some research on mine, I now will only be buying “flame retardant free” furniture and products where possible. This is especially helpful since we are expecting our first little one, and will be buying several pieces of furniture and a fair number of products in the coming months.

My point is, if people don’t even know of the chemicals and products that pose a danger to our health, how can we avoid them?

I was reading Dr. Fung and Jimmy Moore’s new book, The complete guide to fasting, and Jimmy wrote something that I think lends itself well to this discussion. The ketogenic diet is not a weight loss diet. It is diet for improving your body’s health" (not a direct quote, since I don’t have the book with me now). I’d say avoiding harmful chemicals definitely falls under the banner of improving ones health.

At this stage in the game making people aware of the problem is the best play.

(G. Andrew Duthie) #37

The only caveat I would add to this is that, in the case of plastics and EA, we don’t yet have sufficient data to say that there is a problem.

This is a difficult area. Yes, it’s good to be an informed consumer. But particularly in areas where there is significant uncertainty, it’s possible that more information isn’t better. It just causes worry over something that we may not be able to control.

#38

I will respectfully disagree. A recent study was published in the Journal of Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology, Endocrine disruptors and the tumor microenvironment: A new paradigm in Breast cancer biology showing that EDCs have a profound affect on breast cancer growth. (I’m not sure how to link scientific articles, since it is a pay for access Journal)
However, the Highlights of the study were:

EDCs affect breast cancer incidence and progression through estrogen signaling.
EDC exposure alters breast development and adipogenesis, promoting tumor formation.
EDC exposure exerts an oncogenic effect on the extracellular matrix.
EDCs promote breast cancer progression through altered signaling in the tumor stroma.

We know having bio-active chemicals in our bodies is bad. What we don’t know is at what level they become dangerous and what are the main mechanisms EDCs enter our bodies.

The flame retardants @Donna mentioned are EDCs which is why they grabbed headlines years ago. (They were actually banned of children’s clothing in 1977) So where is our exposure and at what level does it become dangerous? Two questions that so far, I have not been able to find answers to.

#39

And I’m wondering if we all had sufficient iodine levels would we be detoxed from some of these environmental hazards?

(mwall) #40

How many sources strongly claimed, and still do, that we need carbs to be healthy? How many sources have diverted attention away from real data toward material gain in convenience? How much of the openly available truth did I ignore despite being sicker and sicker and used the weight of the lies of the market to justify effective ignorance. At what point do I make a decision for myself based on risk reduction? I will try to err on the side of caution if it is as simple as something like an oven reverse seared steak or choosing a glass vessel. We have an advantage in our circle…that being we’ve experienced the gravity of misleading information first hand and the great value of forging a decision for a minority option. I still use products with aspartame but I’m trying to move away from it and not just passively but still not fast enough. Lastly, from an attitude of gratitude, I am thankful my system is not sensitive to real soy sauce. :laughing: