Some fasting questions

(doggonnit) #1

Ok, exploring fasting. Have some questions I have Not found clear answers to.

Doing keto for fat loss. Have not seen any big changes yet (but in ketosis) so looking into next steps.

First have tried both 16/8 and 20/4. It was easier than I thought. No grumbling stomach all day Like I thought I’d have. Definitely think about food but resisting the urge to eat. Not sluggish and tired either.

I’ve seen two camps on coffee. Not doing bulletproof coffee (and not using MCT oil at all). Seen a lot of ‘black coffee only” advice but also some have said “coffee with cream isn’t enough to Matter” opinions. I’ve been doing with cream (half and half) but have been wondering about switching to fat free half and half, as I am not a fan of black coffee. The nutritional label is entirely zeros. Don’t know what is in there, perhaps nuclear sludge. Just thinking that black coffee has 5 g of carbs and that’s ok, is there a tiny threshold in there?

Ketones. My Ketonix has the yellow area which indicates high ketones due to being in a fasted state. Near my evening meal I’ve tested my ketones, but they have not been up in that yellow zone. Could this be that I’ve broken my fast with the coffee and cream in the morning? And therefore am not really getting the 20/4 fast I think I am. I have been checking ketosis is the morning (out of curiosity) and have been around 24ppm most days. But in the evening I’m not way up in the yellow.

Breaking fast. I understand breaking the fast with fat is ideal. I usually have been having dinner or a Fat cheese snack at 6ish and dinner at 8, with my fast starting again after dinner. so 9-10 pm until about 6 the next day. My question is regarding how much to eat. Keep on eating Just enough to not be hungry, which would make you in a great calorie defecit on OMAD. Or are you trying to pack in a couple meals worth of calories into the eating window? I’m concerned about losing metabolism due to both not eating and the overall calories but eating a lot of calories does not seem correct. That leads to…how long to stay in a fasting cycle for the same concerns over metabolism? I’ve done several days in a row.

Me: 49, 6’1, 205, male.

(Allie) #2

Black coffee shouldn’t have any carbs, where are you getting 5g from?

I used to be in the camp of believing a fatty coffee or little bit of good cream (as in not any form of half and half) wouldn’t do any harm, but am now strictly against anything other then black coffee coffee, water, or herb tea in my fasting window and the results I’m getting speak for themselves. I’m no fan of black coffee either (actually it causes me bladder pain) so I keep it to a minimum but still have a cup each morning to avoid the withdrawal headache.

Not specifically no. Break it with fats and / or protein, whatever your body tolerates best.

Eat to appetite, unless you’ve previously screwed up your metabolism and can’t judge properly.

#3

Sound advice there above :point_up: … and like everything else you’ve learned, everyone has their own opinion, and most of that is simply based off what works for them. - Some do take in the small amounts of stuff like cream, etc. and if that works for them, that’s great. But for myself, I am like thinking to what Allie describes - I generally do just water only during Fasting. I have drank Decaf Tea or Black Coffee, but I actually prefer just water mostly and avoid anything that could spike your insulin.

(Jane) #4

Ketones vary all over the map so no need to be concerned.

#5

As they say, don’t chase the numbers… :+1: Too many variables.

(doggonnit) #6

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Guess I misspoke. Here’s a shot from the Starbucks app. 5 calories not carbs.

(Bob M) #7

If I think I’m fasting for longer than 24 hours, I only have black coffee and nothing in my tea. (Normally, have cream in my coffee, nothing in my tea anyway.) I even won’t take vitamin D, which is in MCT oil drops. Water otherwise.

I sometimes do the same if eating one meal a day.

(doggonnit) #8

Do vitamins spike insulin? I take a multivitamin Daily and didn’t think of it as calories.

(Edith) #9

Also, I think you want to eat as close to a day’s worth of calories as you can in that one meal so you don’t make your body think you are starving.

(Bob M) #10

Probably not a lot. I’d ignore, though you probably don’t need if fasting. I haven’t taken a multivitamin in … I’m not sure how long. 5+ years?

(doggonnit) #11

I wasn’t chasing numbers just trying to use it as a judge as to whether or not I was breaking my fast. Perhaps it’s irrelevant.

(doggonnit) #12

That’s what I’m not quite understanding. Eating less to lose weight but not wanting to think it’s starving. Keep hearing eat the same keto macros in your food window but it’s the total calories to eat that I haven’t found an answer to.

#13

I can’t help with the coffee, I read various thoughts, I simply don’t eat when fasting, it’s very basic to me. If I can’t drink black coffee (then it’s not weak enough :D), I don’t drink coffee, it works for me, fortunately. But I am sure that a few drops of cream wouldn’t take away all the benefits… But I prefer a real fast if I can do it - and anyway, cream probably makes me hungry earlier. It’s mostly neutral but it’s better if I fast properly. It’s individual. Cream and fat helps many people and they experience no problem. If their goal is fat-loss, it’s fine, if other benefits of fasting… I don’t know.

I eat as much as I want. No, OMAD doesn’t necessarily result in any calorie deficit let alone a huge one. It’s individual. I hardly can eat enough on keto OMAD but 4 hours are more than enough for maintenance if I choose the right food items. By the way right food. If my diet is really right, I just eat as much as I need/can/want, the 3 are very close to each other then. Whatever is good for my body, I don’t wonder about what calorie intake sounds right… If I really want to do OMAD, I need to eat as much as I possibly can (without feeling too forced, a little is needed. so I rarely do OMAD). It doesn’t matter how many meals I have, I need the same amount of food. My OMAD days usually have a little less food than my 4 meal days but they aren’t very different and it’s the right thing… My body couldn’t care less how many times I ate, it wants its nutrients. Satiation wise there is some difference if it’s 1-2 days but not longer term. Tiny, like 1400 kcal OMAD meals result in huge hunger and falling off the OMAD wagon in my case. So I don’t do that even if I am very full for days with this amount.
If you can’t eat enough in one sitting (and even on OMAD as I easily ate big meals off OMAD but couldn’t do it on OMAD), don’t do OMAD.

I wouldn’t worry about my metabolism ever. I almost always did IF in my last many years, I did 19/5 for quite long and my metabolism is the same as ever as far as I can tell. Why would it harm metabolism? It makes no sense to me. As long as we eat enough, of course.

I break my fast with my normal food… One of my beloved fatty protein sources :slight_smile: Eggs, meat, cheese… Some people need a light meal, I eat a proper big meal on IF, after 48 hours… I probably couldn’t do it after a very long fast, I would eat more carefully and according to my hunger. My own body knows better what it needs and it tells me.

(Bob M) #14

No one seems to know what breaks a fast. Some think any calories at all (even from black coffee) break a fast. Others believe there’s a sliding scale, and nothing is black/white. I’m with the latter group: I doubt a few calories (or protein) from coffee will break a fast.

Plus, if you’ve ever fasted for a while, it’s hard to do. I need all the help I can get.

As for calories, think satiety first. Eat until you’re not hungry. Ignore calories. At some point, you can check calories if you want and adjust, but initially, it’s easier just to eat until you’re full.

I also will “preload” may eating before a fast, but I do that because over time fasting has gotten harder for me. If I eat more before I fast, I find fasting easier. But again not something new to fasting has to do. When I started fasting 4-5 years ago, 4.5 day fasts were nothing, and I regularly did two 36 hour fasts per week. Now, I have a hard time doing those.

#15

Some coffee isn’t going to matter and neither is heavy cream if you’re only going for fat loss. It’s when you’re specifically (or just also want) autophagy that you have to be careful about stuff like that. When you do PSMFs (Protein Sparing modified fasts) you eat 600-1000cals a day and loose just as much fat as you do eating nothing at all on a “normal” fast. It’s not as touchy as people want it to be in most cases.

#16

There are multiple opinions. I need my calorie deficit to lose so it makes little sense to eat my 2000 kcal OMAD meals and expect fat-loss except if I have proper exercise… But my experiences clearly show this. A cute calorie deficit never harmed my metabolism and I never lost fat without it so that’s the way.
It’s another thing we usually don’t know our energy need, it easily changes too (if I exercise, I never know it. and I only know it without exercise as I counted it from my fat-loss and energy intake ages ago and assume it’s similar even now. I know my typical 2000 kcal is wonderful for maintenance but probably just barely enough for that), we can’t track out intake either but we may have a good guess if we make our food and we have a good idea about the ingredients (if I eat mutton, I can’t have much idea how much fat is in it)…
Oh I forgot. I can’t help but have a higher-calorie day now and then, it just automatically comes. It may do good to my metabolism, my body can see it’s not a constant restriction…

(Bob M) #17

I’m not sure this is true. Why do people think drinking coffee, with its few calories and protein, is going to completely stop autophagy for a fast? I’ve heard people argue this is true, but the body is rarely binary. I mean if I drink 1 cup coffee and 2 cups tea every day while fasting 4.5 days, there’s no autophagy? I find that quite difficult to believe.

And I’m not sure there’s a way to test this anyway, other then to guesstimate it using GKI or some other index, and I personally think those are bunk to a large degree, too.

#18

I personally don’t think it would either, but most are going to put HC in there. I don’t think anything about our bodies is as temperamental as people want it to be.

(Bob M) #19

I agree. Too much fat could lesson (stop?) autophagy.

When I fast, though, I drink coffee black. I drank it that way for years, but to me, it tastes better with some cream. And I use only about 1 tsp of cream per 2 cups coffee, on the days I’m not fasting.

Here’s someone who argues that coffee helps with autophagy:

But I’ve heard people on podcasts where they were adamant that even black coffee stopped autophagy. Must only fast with water and that’s it! :wink:

(Edith) #20

How would one really know?