So which is it? Macros vs Satiety

(John) #21

Cool, thanks man. And here I was hoping you worked at a restaurant called Full Metal Keto.

Good name for a restaurant, right?

(Full Metal KETO AF) #22

Naw, I just loved the Stanley Kubrick movie. Now I’m gonna have to watch it again, thanks…:cowboy_hat_face:

(Carl Keller) #23

Same here. I tracked out of curiosity and because I’m a stat nerd. The amount of protein I ate was consistently 120+ grams per day. In my experience, protein along with fat is a huge component in satiety and eating more than most macros suggest didn’t cause me to gain weight or even stall me. However, I will submit that some people say that too much protein causes them to stall… so YMMV.

I do eat vegetables and fiber is a part of my diet but I don’t believe it’s as necessary to me as it is to people eating a SAD. There’s a lot of bad science that suggests it’s important for good health and to prevent colon cancer etc and perhaps this is true when we are eating highly processed foods. But when we are eating mostly unprocessed fat and protein, we are eating a diet that closesly resembles one that our ancestors ate for a million+ years and they didn’t have the “luxury” of fiber for large portions of the year. Fiber is a subset of carbohydrate and it’s arguable that we even need carbs at all. If we don’t need carbs, how is that we need an indigestible subset?

#24

Is the jelly donut scene hard to watch? :grinning:

(Full Metal KETO AF) #25

Not for me, but I’m pretty sure it would send @PaulL over the deep end with the donut as punishment for a diet violation theme! :joy::joy::cowboy_hat_face:

(Allie) #26

Your body knows what it needs better than any calculator. If you were on the low end of calories every day that would concern me, but with the variance you’ve described, i think you’re doing a very good job of listening to your body and giving it what it needs.

(less is more, more or less) #27

There’s such a cacophony of sources, that I’m unclear from where you’ve gotten this idea. It’s not anti- or pro-fiber, but like everything else, we like the evidence to speak for itself, and not our biases, though our n=1 is invaluable.

Dr. Zoë Harcombe offers an excellent overview of fiber as it relates to a low-carb diet. Remember, on low-carb, some things invert, but not all.

(hottie turned hag) #28

Wiser, more eloquent heads than mine replied above so I’m just casting another vote for satiety, based upon my own experience of never counting ANYthing, not a calorie, never a macro, nor testing a single ketone.

I started Aug 2017 fat as a sad potato :potato:, postmenopausal, short, small framed and sedentary af so all strikes agin me and I lost 60+lbs with the quickness. Am struggling now that I’m so close to goal (am 116, goal is 110) but until I got to 122 it was a fast decline.

Also I can shovel in a LOT of food, at one sitting. Examples of ONE day’s intake: 16 oz mozz, head o’ cabbage, 2-4 franks. Another day: Bigass steak, entire 8 oz stick pepperoni, 2-4 franks, sauerkraut, 1lb bacon. Yes in one day. I’m a glutton like that :smiley:

I always add disclaimer that what works for me may suck for you. Biochemical idiosyncratic responses are oft underconsidered as they’re not always quantifiable with hard data. I suggest trying different methods you read about on here: carnivore, not carnivore, OMAD, TMAD, and all sorts until you hit the method that works for you. I’d give each trial 30 days.

It’s also suggested to switch things up when one stalls; I have also done this with success. I had to drop all cheese and veg to break that 122 stall.

Welcome, by the way! Here’s a cute :robot: and some :bacon: :cut_of_meat: for encouragement.

Yep! Cannot stress this enough.

Heckyeah it is. :orange_heart:

(John) #29

I try to stay close to the Westman recommendations. Real doctor, solid credentials, does actual clinical work with real patients.

Also - from this page on DietDoctor (another site run by a real doctor):

Restrict carbohydrates to 20 digestible grams per day or less – a strict low-carb or keto diet. Fiber does not have to be restricted, it might even be beneficial for ketosis.

From Mark Sisson’s web site:

Eat Vegetables

The vast majority of vegetables are keto-friendly. Not only do they provide important micronutrients and phytonutrients, they provide negligible amounts of carbohydrates. To meet your essential micronutrient needs, above-ground vegetables should be the bulk of your keto diet in terms of volume, even while fat will provide the majority of your calories.

Eat Berries

Raspberries, blackberries, strawberries, and blueberries are all quite low in glycemic load and extremely high in phytonutrients. While eating a flat of strawberries isn’t very ketogenic, a large bowlful won’t knock you out.

Eat Fiber

Many people on ketogenic diets tend to ignore or malign fiber. That’s a mistake. First, fiber doesn’t digest into glucose. It doesn’t “count.” Second, fiber feeds your gut biome, providing fermentable substrate for your gut bacteria to turn into beneficial short chain fatty acids and to provide support to your immune system.

I personally follow the Westman / DietDoctor / Sisson approach to vegetables and fiber. I try to get plenty, while still getting the benefits of reduced hunger and lipolysis by staying in ketosis by keeping total carbs low.

There are those who post frequently here who either don’t or can’t follow those guides, but for me it works.

(less is more, more or less) #30

Since we’re all things Page Four, we should be careful to note that Dr. Westman is a strict 20 TOTAL carbs, including fiber. I’ve had this talk with him as his patient. It was difficult to wrap my head around at the time. You may spend your 20 grams on fiber if you wish, but you must include it.

(John) #31

I suppose I should say that I follow his recommendations for which foods to eat, and mostly follow his mandatory “2 cups of leafy green vegetables and 1 cup of other above ground vegetables” requirements.

I don’t eat that consistently day to day. Some days are low to no carbs, some days more. Over a week, I probably do average out to the Westman guideline.

(Jane) #32

Another vote for satiety.

Macros are good for those whose satiety signals are broken and never feel full, but that doesn’t sound like your case. Personally I never counted macros - just kept my carbs under 20.

My hunger varies all over the map and I consider that a good thing. Some days just not very hungry and don’t eat much… and some days I can’t seem to get filled up - even focusing on protein and fat. I just eat.

I’ve had no trouble maintaining my weight loss for over a year now and that is a small miracle for me.

Good luck in your journey!

(Full Metal KETO AF) #33

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned about fiber, the standard recommended amounts of fiber as recommended by the same folks who created the ill advised food pyramid that brought us all to poor health made the huge amount of recommended fiber to counteract the constipating effects of carb rich highly processed foods that people on the SAD diet need to avoid problems. No fiber is needed to process animal foods, even cheese in the absence of wheat and other bulky stool promoting foods. Starchy carbs that take longer to break down combined with meats and cheese can block you up (pizza, philly cheese subs, cheeseburgers and fries).

Low carb vegetables contain built in fiber content. When you put less crap in your body less crap is going out. Foods eaten on a ketogenic diet are more fully absorbed in the digestive track. So generally bowel movements decrease in size and frequency on a keto diet. This isn’t a problem or unhealthy. The “normal” standard, have a good bowel movement everyday only applies to people on the high carb diet to keep them from stopping up.

With keto the answer to regularity is adequate salt and water. People experiencing constipation on keto have generally been lax on these two and so that’s the cure, not Metamucil or a fiber product. For lots of people these actually cause bloating or inflammation which they may not have noticed before keto while eating tons of processed carbohydrates. Of course as has been said everyone finds their own path on keto that works best for them. :cowboy_hat_face:

Sorry @CarlKeller, I jumped past your post!

(hottie turned hag) #34

Ya this happens to me as I get closer to goal.
When still fat I had low appetite after starting keto. Now am often ravenous. I still trust that satiety thing though :+1: