So I did an interesting protein experiment with Egg Whites vs Whey

[richard]

Thanks for the comment.

the only way to tap into the stores of glucose from exercise to deplete them at this point is to increase your VO2max

I was instrumented for the first 2 rides using a Microsoft Band which was supposed to be able to measure (or approximate) V02 max but I was never able to get it to switch into that mode despite several times doing hill sprints on my bike to collapse. The manual says - hey do a hard workout a few times and we’ll get a baseline. I have since tossed the Microsoft band, and it seems that Microsoft has given up on it too.

The intensity of the workouts could have been different. I don’t know but if they were the same. It would make since to see a increase in glucose in the blood if your intensity was higher.

For what it is worth I did 2, 3 and 4 circuits respectively (Egg white, Whey, Control) of lake Burley Griffin which contains several sprint points and a hill climb. But yeah that was confounded by the difference in the challenges.

To really test properly I would have to be on a stationary bike and properly instrumented. You are correct that I assume by fasting for more than 3 days that I would have made a whole in my liver stores of glucose, and exercising in that state for several hours would have made hole in my muscle stores.

You are making the assumption here that the stored glucose is depleted.

You also think that by fasting all the glucose would be used it is not

I didn’t expect that all my stored glucose would be depleted, just a sufficient hole to give me a rough proxy for circulating insulin.

I observed a difference in how long my glucose remained depressed after eating whey compared to egg white and to eating nothing after exercise both in duration and degree.

Whey does have a greater insulin response. But their are two factors to account for the rate of absorption and the amino acid profile.

I totally agree.

Does the insulin response of whey negate these benefits? This i think depends on the person and goals. Eating to satiation is not a option when eating whey protein shakes.

I agree this is contextual to your goals. Mine are to lower chronic insulin, to reduce resistance to it, so I can lower secretion. And in my circumstance I make a lot for a long time - so I likely have to work on that more than most. Anything that provokes a strong insulin response borks satiation signalling and the more IR they are the more that is the case - so yes we agree vigorously here.

[Jason_Fletcher]

Anything that provokes a strong insulin response borks satiation signalling

How was your satiation signalling during this Whey vs. Egg. Where you able to recall feeling more hungry from the whey? What did you feel like before you consumed the egg vs whey? I did remember finding something that Whey could be satiating but I do not remember how the experiment was setup or what the exact findings were. I have always made the assumption that foods that will spike insulin will make you hungry. So whey by doing so would by default make you hungry. But i wonder if there is another factor when it comes to whey that could counter the hunger created by the quick drop in blood glucose. Or if whey has other property’s that increase insulin sensitivity even in contrast to its high insulin response. Does a high increase in insulin from the amino acids without added glucose help in the long run with IR? Another question is what is your body doing during the time that your blood glucose is low from the insulin response? I would think at this point it would be forced to work as hard as it can to balance your energy needs. We would think that with high insulin levels this would stop the oxidation and use of fat and ketones production. So at this point you body would be dumping glucose from muscles and liver to balance this energy need. The same thing here happens when you do HIIT exercises over 80% of your VO2max(lower depending on condition of your body). From what i have found is that HIIT exercises help increase insulin sensitivity during workout and over time. I think when your body is in a high glucose demanding state without ingested glucose it conditions your body to become more effective at glucose uptake along with increasing its ability to burn fat at higher levels of your VO2max. . One major difference with HIIT exercise and ingestion of whey would be adrenaline level. This is one thing that does push down hunger. I understand as well that eating large amounts of fat or any energy source right after a workout would not be wise if weight loss is the goal since your body would be most capable at this time to store the energy. Plus you would most likely stop short the mechanisms that are increasing insulin sensitivity. Whey from this line of thought taken after the workout could possible extend the window of time the body is in this state and further increase insulin sensitivity. I guess you could see once adrenaline is lowered you would be starving and over eating could be a factor. But another interesting fact is that adrenaline remains elevated after HIIT workouts longer then steady state this i believe also accounts for the higher BMI after HIIT up to 48 hours. One thing I find contrary about HIIT workouts is that it increases insulin sensitivity in spite of having high insulin levels. Jason Fung states that by lowering insulin by fasting you increase insulin sensitivity. Increased insulin causes insulin resistance. This can not be fully true if you can have a high state of insulin with a HIIT workout and increase insulin sensitivity. There has to be another hormonal factors involved. I wonder if this other factor also could possibility related to whey proteins ability to increase insulin sensitivity in some study’s.

[richard]

what is your body doing during the time that your blood glucose is low from the insulin response? I would think at this point it would be forced to work as hard as it can to balance your energy needs. We would think that with high insulin levels this would stop the oxidation and use of fat and ketones production.

It’s more likely the opposite. When I say my insulin went high after the challenge, I didn’t mean secreted into general circulation to cause mischief, but rather secreted and used to get glucose into depleted muscle cells. So each molecule of insulin engaged translocating GLUT4 in a muscle cell meant one fewer to bind to fat cells to inhibit lipolysis, or to liver cells to inhibit the spilling of ketones.

Jason Fung states that by lowering insulin by fasting you increase insulin sensitivity. Increased insulin causes insulin resistance. This can not be fully true if you can have a high state of insulin with a HIIT workout and increase insulin sensitivity.

I suspect the apparent paradox comes from conflating the acute and chronic effects of high insulin.

Leaving aside it’s primary role in moderating lipid supply from storage, Insulin is a signal to tell peripheral cells to translocate high speed glucose transports (GLUT4) to the cell wall to rapidly draw down circulating glucose.

Acutely more insulin means more GLUT4, but chronically more insulin means less GLUT4 as cells gradually protect themselves from gluts of energy by developing a protective resistance to insulin.

You can use this analogy; you walk into as silent room and whisper and other people can hear you. Once everyone starts whispering the ambient noise level rises and you have to speak louder for the same effect. Speaking louder is the acute effect of more signal. The fact you needed to speak louder is the chronic effect of more signal.

The problem for someone who has been deranged is anything that provokes insulin causes us to make more for longer … sticking with the same analogy we’re walking into a quiet room with mild tinnitus so we have to ask people to speak up all the time. Enough time in quiet rooms and we may slowly become more sensitized. If we spend time in loud rooms the tinnitus gets worse.

[DougGill]

@richard , I did something similar with a triathlete friend. He had a similar reaction to yours (Blood sugar dropped). Mine had the exact opposite reaction - it went up.
http://lowcarbstudies.com/blog/2018/03/29/blood-sugar-responses-compared/
My blood sugar took hours to stabilize. His stabilized pretty quickly.

@richard I am curious about your podcast intro. You say that all signs of disease are gone but I’ve also heard you state that your Fasting Insulin is high. That would suggest that at least one of the markers of Insulin Resistance is still present. Is that a concern for you and what are you doing to try and reverse that? Would further weight loss help? (I know you and Carl both say weight loss isn’t necessarily your goal). I know you ride your bike quite a bit so that sort of intervention seems only so helpful in your case.

[Karim_Wassef]

Great experiments! Thanks for sharing.

I don’t do well with whey but I do great with eggs. My n=1

Do you think it’s the amino acid profile differences?

Whey:

The Breakdown of Whey Protein Amino Acids | Livestrong.com

Egg:
https://www.aeb.org/food-manufacturers/research-resources/nutrient-composition-tables

[Bellyman]

whey has been shown to be more insulinogenic than eating a meal of only white bread.

It would be interesting to see what kind of reaction if you actually tried that, not just take someone’s word for it. Would it be that way for you? I’m cautious when I read statements like that.

[richard]

I need to work in a lab where I can do cheap multiple insulin tests and then I assure you that experiment will be done.

For now best I can do is use glucose clearance as a poor proxy for relative insulin production, after a 3+ day fast then several hours of exercise. That’s a lot of work just to repeat an experiment

[PortHardy]

So… what would your BG look like if you did

Whey Protein Isolate VS
Whey Protein Conventrate VS
Casein Protein VS
Whey blend like 80% whey 20% Casein?

[ellenor2000]

Why do you think you herxed?

[Abi34]

I used to use lots of whey protein as part of my low carb diet. I thought I had thyroid problems because I couldn’t lose any weight or fat. Then I realized I had insulin resistance but had no idea whey could be insulinogenic. Then I started to get hypoglycemic episodes every time I used whey protein. My blood sugar crashed so low that one day on public transit, after blood work at my doctor, I had an episode. Came very close to passing out on the metro. I had to get off and buy something sugary just to get home safely. Got home to hear a frantic call from my doctor begging me to come back to the office. My sugar had crashed to 2 which is dangerously low. " Symptoms of very low blood sugar (less than 2.8 mmol/L) are more severe and can make you:

• confused and disoriented
• lose consciousness
• have a seizure"

I instantly dropped the whey protein and have never had a hypoglycemic episode since, with no other intervention.