So damn frustrated

(Christopher) #1

I have been intermittent fasting, eating low carb (less than 20 carbs a day or at 20 carbs a day). This has been a challenging but beneficial experience, where I have lost almost 100 lbs and have regained a considerable amount of energy. I also take Metformin 500mg bid, Vitamin D3, Alpha Lipoic Acid 600mg, Turmeric 2 g, Astathaxin 12 mg.

I have been fasting on a 42 x 3 schedule, with a 18 hour fast on Saturday until Sunday. I don’t vary this schedule much, and if I do I add a four day fast from Sunday to Thursday occasionally.

Why all of a sudden, can I not get my blood sugar under 110 to 100? I have not changed my diet and all of a sudden, it is running 20 to 30 points higher. Previously it was 80 to 95 pretty frequently. This is incredibly frustrating, and I am 111 right now but 41 hours into a four day fast.

(Bob M) #2

Is that (111) a morning value or a value during the day?

I have often wondered if there can be a rebound effect as we do so much fasting. For instance, see my values below:

image

What caused the insulin values of 33 and 23.8? (The yellow = fasting 4.5 days) I have no idea, but I was fasting quite a bit before those, then eating normally.

I wonder if this is some type of rebound effect, where the body suddenly produces more of insulin (my case) or blood sugar (your case), which will lead to better results over time?

(Christopher) #3

I suspect neoglucogenesis, but I am not sure. I get the 100 to 120 all day long, but this is unusual for me and I am confused about the reason it would be happening. I don’t know where the damn sugar is coming from in my body at this point.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #4

Just my potshot in the dark. Metabolic damage can be lots more serious/extensive than you think. Fixing it can take a lot longer than you hope or imagine. It took years to do the damage; hopefully, it won’t take years to undo it, but it might take a long time. Anomalies like you describe happen in disrupted systems sort of like turning over a rock. They sometimes even happen in non-disrupted systems.

#5

Turmeric is a poison and sometimes contaminated with lead.

Did you stop taking any supplements?

(Christopher) #6

I have taken the same brand of Turmeric for years. No lead level increases.

(Christopher) #7

I am usually an anomaly. Lucky Pierre!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

What is your thinking, here? Why is your glucose level so important to you? Do you know what your insulin and HbA1C are doing in the meanwhile? How about your inflammatory markers? Your lipids?

It is possible that you have been stressed, so cortisol has raised your glucose to fight it. This is normal, and nothing to worry about.

If your HbA1C is good, your glucose level is not as important. See this post by Petro Dobromylskyj (“Peter”) for more information:

If your glucose is rising but your insulin is dropping, get checked for Type I diabetes. (Do your sweat and urine smell and taste sweet? That’s another symptom.)

If you are measuring in the morning, perhaps you are seeing the dawn phenomenon?

If you are generally healthy and feeling good, perhaps your glucose level is of no concern.

#10

this is super short, like 6 mins. and gives great insight.

(john d) #11

protein can and will convert to glucose with over consumption

btw… metformin can normally be eliminated with fasting and correct fat to protein intake. imho I would suggest getting dr approval to dump metformin or at least, replace with berberine

I suggest watching Dr Jason Fung on Youtube as he has done this with thousands of patients.

(Sandi) #12

Do you listen to Jason Fung, and do you visit DietDoctor.com? I know I’ve heard people talk (often) about glucose levels going up during fasted exercise, and I suspect I heard it from one of those sources.

I wore a CGM for some weeks, and my blood levels did not always make sense to me. Howvever, when I did a fasting blood test, the numbers continue downward.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #13

Not so much, that’s outdated…

(john d) #14

re-read whatever you’re reading because its not outdated.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #15

Gluconeogenesis is pretty tightly regulated. On a high-carb diet, eating protein stimulates a fair amount of insulin (at about half the rate that carbohydrate stimulates it) and almost no glucagon, which means that gluconeogenesis is pretty well inhibited. On a low-carb diet, glucagon from the lack of carbohydrate stimulates gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis, and any amount of protein eaten stimulates comparable secretions of insulin and glucagon, so the amount of gluconeogenesis is not affected by the amount of protein ingested. It is at that point that the other regulatory mechanisms come into play.

In any case, gluconeogenesis from protein is not the only source of glucose on a ketogenic diet. Glucose can also be made from fatty acids, and from the glycerol backbone of triglycerides. So in case of need, the body has plenty of sources. And in case of an excess of glucose production, the liver can always store it as glycogen, to be released later at need.

#16

Protein poisoning would not occur if excess protein could be converted into glucose.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning

(john d) #17

I think the subject is getting diluted. There are many experts from Dr Boz, Dr Jason Fung, Professor Seyfried, Dominic D’Agostino, Dr Berg and many others, that any big debate on the subject is unneccessary and a waste of time.

From the diets of Seizure victims to D’Agostino’s work with Navy Seals and Ketone therapy, to Dr. Boz’s work in Ketone measuring based on research by Prof. Seyfried who was also involved in diets for seizure victims, this topic is already gone over and addressed.

Protein is well known to cause limits to weight loss in Keto diets. Not in everyone or in every situation. Heck, I lost weight on Atkins. But it is a source of food that can mess things up. And can even greatly limit weight loss in some people who have to resort to high fat low protein intake.

Someone eating excessive amounts of protein could very well end up running into problems losing that last 10 to 20 lbs.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #18

@planes @PaulL @Chris1

The above contains all of the following links with a discussion of each. Also, the discussion in the comments following the article details many contra arguments and the contra contras. Well worth reading.

https://www.jci.org/articles/view/100818
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/abs/10.1152/ajpendo.1990.258.2.e288
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.90233.2008




Newbie with question
(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

The following exchange (at the bottom) from the comments following Amber’s article is of particular interest.

Posted by Mar(t)y Kendall (Unknown April 29, 2015 at 5:18 PM):

…
So in sum:

  1. The vast majority of the protein that in excess to the body’s needs will turn into glucose via GNG.
  2. You don’t see a sharp blood sugar rise in most normal healthy people because it is stored as glycogen in the liver and muscle for later use and any excess that spills into the blood over and above what is required for the body’s repair and refilling glycogen stores.
  3. When this glucose from glycogen is used for energy or stored as fat it will require insulin.
  4. Excessive GNG due to high levels of protein ingestion will not lead to a ketogenic state.

Posted by Amber O’Hearn April 29, 2015 at 7:28 PM:

As to your summary:

  1. is vague and circular, because we don’t know what makes protein excess. It’s almost true by definition, but the implied causality is backwards. A more accurate statement might be that any protein that gets shunted into being metabolised for glucose must be excess. I would, if pressed, guess that the body strongly disprefers this use of protein, and would be evolutionarily driven to use it any other way it can first. My point is similar to Taubes point about calories. Yes, fat is made of excess calories. Does that tell you anything about causality, or what makes a calorie excessive in the first place? No.

  2. lacks evidence, it’s a hypothesis. Some of the experiments I’ve cited measure whether the glycogen came from “new” glucose via GNG. (I apologise; I can’t check which ones right now.) The evidence is not just inferred from measuring blood sugar, but whether new glucose was actually being produced to be stored as glycogen. Again, insulin levels tend to reduce GNG (no matter where the resulting glucose is going). So, I don’t think that hypothesis will hold up as is.

  3. I agree with 3.

  4. assumes what you are trying to prove, that high levels of protein cause excessive GNG. As I’ve said above, it appears that any such relationship would have to have causality in this order: higher protein --> decreased ketogenesis --> increased demand for GNG to fill the energy demand not met by ketones.

Newbie with question