Sleep, what actual time and how does it work?

(Jim) #1

Since I started doing keto for the 3rd time, for some reason I’m sleeping very well compared to the first time. The only thing that makes it difficult sometimes, is that I have an online study from 19:00 until 21:15 which makes the winding down a bit difficult. Anyway, I was searching online for sleep habits combined with my own sleep research for years, and on a lot of things, everybody agrees. Like at least 1 hour of no phone before bed, watch you’re caffeïne intake, and so on and so on.

But then there is this interesting topic about Bedtime. Here are most scientists divided (At least the research I was reading). Some say it has to do with your genes. Things like Night Owl, and Morning Lion. Some say that this is true, but that you can alter your sleep routine towards your own desire. The only thing you have to do is to keep consistent about your bedtime (It seems that everybody agrees on that). Then some people say that everything before 12 counts for 2. If you read the book The 5 AM Club, it goes deeply into how important the early hours of sleep are so important.

Anyway, I tried multiple routines in my life. Some work and Some don’t. I’ve had days that I ate a big meal at 9 PM and slept like a baby at midnight. Some days I eat super good and stop my eating around 5 PM and sleep terribly haha.

I can remember 2 times that I slept very well;

  1. It was in my study and I was working 1 day a week. I quit any form of electronics around 7:30 PM and went to bed around 9-9:30 ish. Slept until 05:30-06:00 and was very well rested. Another one was on a long holiday that I had. I went to bed around midnight and woke up around 9 AM. That also seemed to work. When I go to bed between 10 and 11:30, I wake up multiple times in the middle of the night.

What have you guys figured out? I know there has been a lot of research on this forum when it comes to sleep. Any idea why I have those weird sleep hours that work and some that don’t?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

I go through phases and try not to let it faze me. (Sorry–couldn’t resist, lol!) There have been times in my life when I could have a cup of coffee at 10:30 p.m. (22:30) and fall right asleep at midnight, and other times when that would keep me up till 4:00 a.m. I’ve also been decaffeinated during a number of periods during my life, and would regularly fall asleep at 11:30 (23:30).

At the moment, we are eating fairly late in the evening, and I don’t see that it makes a difference. I do tend to need to stop with the real coffee by late afternoon. However, I read on my phone right up till the time I turn out the light, and I fall asleep easily. So all of this is not only individual, but it also shifts over time in the same individual.

I do have a couple of tricks for times when I can’t get to sleep. One is to have a mug of warmed milk. Another is that I am trying to write a science fiction story, and there is a particular scene involving a lecture by the main character to a group of students–trying to rehearse that lecture never fails to put me to sleep, lol! (Doesn’t bode well for the novel, does it?) I also used to keep rats and chinchillas, and the sound of their movements in the night was very soothing. That, I really miss. I also make sure my breathing is good–if my sinuses are clogged, I can’t get to sleep. Gargling with warm, salty water is a big help there.

By the way, the old idea of “beauty sleep” was that it was the hours you were asleep before midnight that were the most restful.

Lastly: I have read a couple of sleep studies in which participants who thought they were awake all night were actually asleep most of that time, and participants who thought they slept soundly were often awake during most of that time. At least according to their brain waves. Having read that, I stopped worrying about how long it was taking me to fall asleep.

#3

The eating near bed time is individual for sure, blue light can suppress melatonin, but for many it doesn’t seem to make any difference at all. Temperature can affect your night’s sleep huge! Caffeine is tricky though. I’m a slow caffeine metabolizer, so I need to keep it minimal, and cut it out before lunch or I could still be drip feeding it all night long, and I’ve found most people are closer to that, than the other way around. Unless you can honestly say drinking coffee “gives you energy”, then you’re probably in the same boat. I don’t know anybody like that. Sleep cycle consistency is a real one though, the body doesn’t like change there.

I do (and have done) everything from a handful of supplements before bed, red light therapy, Delta sleep inducing peptides, binaural beats, sleep cocktails, recently upgraded my sleep number bed to have heating/cooling, track my sleep with both my bed and my fitness tracker which feeds to a 3rd party app for more in depth analytics, I’m a sleep nut!

(Geoffrey) #4

When I was working I would have a hard time getting to sleep. Just couldn’t get my brain to shut down and quit working out problems.
Now that I’m retired I have no problems falling asleep but now I can’t sleep very long. I generally only sleep 4-5 hours.
On top of that, it doesn’t matter what time I go to bed I will wake up with the sun.

(KM) #5

Hot flashes for 13 years now. I’m too hot! I’m freezing! I’m too hot! At times I can’t decide which! I consider every sleeping minute a victory. And there’s nothing like biochemistry to help me nod off. Jason Fung has been instrumental to a good night’s sleep, sometimes within 2 paragraphs.

(Jim) #6

Interesting, I have the same thing. I only drink 1 cup of coffee in the morning after 60-90min or take a capsule of 80mg caffeïne. If I go above that, I feel it when I’m going to sleep. Did you do a DNA test to figure that out or just self-experimenting?

Tried that, felt so much energy that evening haha. I would recommend Redlight therapy to everybody. But to me it gives so much energy that I only do it in the morning and after noon.

#7

I do have one copy of the slow caffeine gene, but knew even before the test since I used to drink coffee sunrise to sunset and never really got energy from it, but just really like it. Good/bad thing is I drink way less now since coffee hasn’t tasted the same since two rounds of COVID, it’s gotten slightly better, but not the same at all. Even the smell isn’t great to me anymore.

On the red light, for me at least I did get that weird every burst from it as well at the beginning, but then is started to become relaxing. Wish it stayed the way it was! I have a hard time with stimulants not working on me, I’m just not wired right for them. Closest I can get is nicotine gum, but that craps expensive! Although it’s a good nootropic either way.

There was a huberman podcast that went into caffeine pretty deep and some studies showed that some slow metabolizers can take almost 48hrs to totally clear a couple hundred mg’s from their system, I’ve never made it that far to test. Mostly replaced my coffee with tea at this point since that still tastes right to me.

I can see the difference in my REM and Deep sleep though when I keep it lower. Doesn’t have an effect with me falling asleep but can see the total differences in those phases.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

But why take a tablet when you could be drinking actual coffee? :coffee::coffee:

#9

I bought caffeine tablets for my dry fasts. On a dry fast you obviously don’t drink, so you don’t drink coffee, either. This gives me ferocious headaches after, say, 18 to 20 hours at the latest (Yes, I love coffee). The caffeine pills were to push myself over those 18-20 hours.

Then I started the keto diet, with which I am very happy, so the experiment will have to wait…

(Jim) #10

Because coffee contains a lot of Acid. My body doesn’t respond well to it. Especially when I drink it on an empty stomach. When I drink it after a big meal with a lot of milk (Latte works best), then it’s doable.

Trust me, I would love to enjoy a cup of Joe in the morning! It’s a great experience.

(KM) #11

I can’t drink black coffee on an empty stomach but with a good shot of cream in it, no problem.

(Mark Rhodes) #12

Here is a breakdown of sleep by @amber https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqiglOqXrjc

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

That’s a shame. Not being able to drink coffee is almost as bad as not being able to eat bacon! :coffee: :bacon:

(Mark Rhodes) #14

Serious truth here.

#15

I wish I could quit coffee, I don’t even like it anymore… I mean, not particularly, it can be nice with milk and stuff but it’s usually a disappointment. And it definitely doesn’t do any good to me… I wish it would be so very easy to ignore than bacon! :smiley: Both are mostly harmless but they still not my idea about proper food+drink…

Coffee is a bit fun though and sometimes helps with headache, very rarely even physically… And it’s fine for me to drink it here and there but I tend to overdo it. Now I merely try not to drink it before sunset and sometimes I am successful :smiley: It doesn’t matter if I drink it late so I don’t need to worry about that, at least. I like to keep it in my eating window as I don’t like black coffee…

(Jim) #16

Been off caffeïne for around 3 months I guess? I liked it, having nice and stable energy, but performance-wise I like caffeïne more, especially for training. When you combine caffeïne with nootropics, magic happens lol.

(Allie) #17

I have this issue but only with black coffee.
Add cream and / or butter, or even full fat milk and I’m fine.

But on topic, I aim for 7 hours a night sleep and there is a significant difference in how I feel if these hours are from say 0100-0800 or 2300-0600

It doesn’t seem to matter if I get the same amount of sleep if the time window itself is later. Going to bed after 2300 affects me very badly even if I end up with the same amount of sleep.

(Edith) #18

My husband (night owl) and I (morning bird) keep a fairly early schedule. On weekdays we wake up at 5 am and we go to bed between 8:30 - 9:00 PM.

As the morning bird, the second my eyes open I am full of energy to start the day, could instantly have a conversation, and much prefer morning exercise. My husband is “awake” but certainly not ready to function. The thought of having an early morning conversation makes him cranky, and he could possibly exercise in the morning if someone pointed a gun at his head.

He has been keeping his early morning schedule for years, but it has never turned him into a morning person.

#19

Wow. I am not exactly a night owl, my best time is the evening and I am NOT a morning person. AND I tend to go to bed super late sometimes (it’s not something I can handle, it’s not for me but it happens). My SO is a morning bird.
So it’s a rare but not unheard of thing that he wakes up before I go to sleep… But normally I go to bed ~5 hours after him. No way I would get up early. And no way he could wake up late. I actually have a horrible zombie day if I wake up before 6am. 3am-6am is my sacred sleep time. I MUST sleep then or else I will be totally useless on that day and nothing can help. Going bed after 3am or waking up in that sacred period? Doesn’t matter, I am doomed either way.

Waking up at 3-4am is horrible even for him though as he never got enough sleep at that point. I think we both need about 7 hours. He often don’t get it due to stupid early waking and inability to go to sleep again. I can’t NOT get it without a proper sleep denying torture, I just lose consciousness if I lack sleep. So I never lack sleep for long. I never met another person like me, people are supposed to pull all-nighters or sleep little for days. I can’t do that, I fall asleep, virtually no matter what. Or it was like that in my glorious, easy to fall asleep old times.
Nowadays I have trouble with going back to sleep so unless it’s a very serious lack of sleep, I just exist in a no-brain zombie state until I can rest again.

Since I am an adult, I never could try what would happen if I went to bed before midnight (I mean, longer term. it surely happens once a year or something). I don’t even think it’s possible and I can be very optimistic. But midnight is so super early that I give it zero chance so even if it would be wonderful, I have to give up on it. I aim to go to bed before 2am since many, many years and I fail it virtually every day… I am bad at these things. But if I go to bed before 3am, it’s still not too bad…

I never could exercise in the morning, I mean lifting as I theoretically can go out and walk right after waking (I did that a lot, it’s another matter that nowadays I can’t bring myself to go out immediately). I start my exercise around noon the earliest… As I need energy for it. My energy is super low when I wake up and it goes down after eating, I can lift best well-fasted so it’s lucky I don’t eat early… 12-2pm is good time for my workout.

(Jim) #20

Does anyone wake up earlier since he/she is on keto? I keep waking up at 4-5 AM and can’t sleep further while feeling tired. Very weird feeling.