Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet

(Robin) #163

This is quite a manifesto! Glad you have a well defined plan and it works for you.

Many here have conflicting opinions and approaches. I’m a happy, healthy carnivore and I don’t feel the need to argue or defend my path.
We are a diverse group and support finding what works for each individual. As the saying goes… you do you.
Sounds like you got this.

(B Creighton) #164

Hi Robin,
I am not out to make carnis feel guilty or defensive. I am just essentially saying why I decided carnivore isn’t for me. I quite welcome any carnis pointing out where I am wrong. I know I have probably hit a nerve because carni appears to be the newest thing - what I consider to be a fad - but I know it has some positive aspects to it, and may be a necessary thing for people whose digestive tracts have been damaged by the SAD. Maybe some will benefit by some of my observations. Including those who are pro-carni. I really only want to offer some observations that maybe some have not considered before. I can develop rather strong opinions, and my feelings won’t be hurt by anyone who wants to point out where I have erred or the benefits of carni, but I really rather find that a kind of side observation on my own keto journey. If people inform themselves and still want to try carni, I think they should. I always tend to air my own caveats about things, and why I choose my own particular path. When I am challenged, I usually tend to learn more, and only consider that a good thing. :smile:


I handle everything but I need to be super vary with non-animal items (and many animal items too) if I don’t want to become a different, greedier person who just overeat… I like the chill and simplicity of carnivore (of course one can complicate it if it’s an emotional need or a hobby :wink: I only do it a tiny bit and rather cook carbier food for my desires regarding cooking and baking). It’s not like I would feel bad if I ate 3 bananas and drank a liter of milk… (But it surely would feel a bit odd now… And I would eat a sausage or two right after.)
Keto just wasn’t good enough for me. No benefits (except fat adaptation, I stuck to keto until then), just some hardships. Carnivore is a whole different world! But I tend to have a few toes out of its borders… That’s fine. Carbs mess with me. All edible items are “fine” (i.e. I don’t feel bad after eating them. they may be not ideal) as long as my carb intake isn’t too high.

I think one can love a lot of things in carnivore. And it’s proven that we can get everything on that woe… It’s just not for everyone. Just like keto isn’t.

I couldn’t care less what we were designed, honestly, I check my woe with my individual self to see if it works :). And humans are omnivores, the kind that doesn’t strictly NEED either animals or non-animals for survival (if healthy and resilient, at least?), only any of the two groups (and maybe some B12 if they skip the animal stuff). And some people find their plant-based or carnivore woe even ideal for them (it’s more varied for the first group and more simple for the second. more logical too considering our dietary needs but vegans can go very low-carb if that suits them).
I probably will do an off day tomorrow and it will be heavily plant-based and pretty enjoyable and even good nutrition wise as far as I know, not like it matters so much for a single day. I may overeat protein like crazy again but I do that on carni too sometimes… It’s unavoidable like my very high-fat days.
I have no problem against plants (if I use the right ones in the right amounts but I don’t need the latter to be zero), it’s just too hard to keep my carbs extremely low with them and only the protein rich ones satiate me. So I tend to use those (on my not extreme low-carb off days) and the list of them is short… And the main item there is gluten and it’s not so great for most people as far as I know, not only for the medically sensitive ones. Even I don’t want to eat it galore and I am pretty sure my body handles it without problems. And sadly, it’s my top satiating item, not too fatty pork (ruminant too but I rarely eat that) is only the second. Egg is the third. Almost all plants are hunger-inducing and possibly craving-making in my case.

Oh, the fiber thing. Yep, I have read many times from people that they need some. Interesting. It’s not an essential thing for humans in general but we are wonderfully different.
My body doesn’t care. I tried out very different fiber intake, never had any problem.
Obviously if carnivore doesn’t work for some reason for someone, it’s not for the one in question, at least not at that point. I had a time when I was unable to do keto let alone carnivore. I changed.

But I am a hedonist who doesn’t worry so I just eat whatever I fancy… But I try to eat the right stuff as health is my priority (but I still don’t want to sacrifice anything so I train to want the right things. it goes well enough).


Welcome @trucha !

I’ve not read this entire thread, but I will go ahead and reply to your original question anyways. I’m sure many of the other wonderful, wise folks on the forum have already replied, but perhaps another case of success might bring you more encouragement and determination.

I started with a simple keto plan. (At this point, I was almost 52 yrs old. Had already undergone 5 knee surgeries, had a slipped disc in my lower back, and weighed somewhere in the 240’s, at 5’8".) I added in Intermittent and extended fasting. Read about carnivore, and watched several YouTube videos about it. One of the most powerful was from Mikhala Peterson. Decided to try carnivore. After I finished a 7 day fast, I went hardcore into carnivore. Days 3-5 were excruciating.Learned about insoluable oxalates, lectins and all kinds of ugly stuff - but of particular interest was the phenomenon referred to as an “Oxalate Dump.” Basically, the body purges itself of these nasties. And, because the oxalates are like tiny spike covered balls bouncing around throughout the body, joints and such - well, it hurts. ALOT. But WOWEeeeeeeee! After that, I felt fabulous! At 53, I felt better than I did in high school. I could outrun my kids, well, 4 out of 5 of them.(Grandkids…eh…not so much.) But you get what I mean.

But, like you, I am a veggiesaurus especially in the summer. Its been very hard to stay carnivore at times… My garden is the size of the local Dollar General store. I grow alot of stuff. 1 -2 days a month, I might have a few veggies, but,only the cruciferous like broccoli, brussels sprouts or cauliflower. Might even nibble a couple green beans. But, I never EVER eat spinach or tomatoes. You know when you eat a leaf of raw spinach, there’s that weird, dry sensation on your tongue? Those are insoluable oxalates. I no longer grow spinach.

Fortunately, we raise grass fed beef cattle, breed turkeys, and also have a chickens (layers). So most all of my carnivore needs are living right here in my yard. )I do enjoy salmon or Lake Trout once in awhile.)

Clean carnivore for several months - without any cheats - is really the way to go if you truly want to find out how good you can feel. I mixed it with IF and EF because, I’ll tell ya, after eating a 1-2 ribeye steaks with butter, I can go DAYS before I feel hungry again. It is an amazing feeling.

So, don’t give up. Go all in. And, I wish you the best.

(Edith) #167

Sorry, but I consider this line a crack-up because you follow keto, and that is considered a fad. :laughing:


Just new V…give a break?

(Edith) #169

Okay, I should have worded it more like “the irony of the comment.”

I’ve been keto for five years with some carnivore mixed in. Keto has definitely become more mainstream if I can go by all the keto products I see in the stores these days. But, until just a few years ago, it was, and in some circles still is, a fad diet.


Carni is super old, just like vegetarianism, veganism, doing OMAD…etc. :smiley:
Okay, it wasn’t even known everywhere so maybe that’s it. Whatever. Not important.

Who cares what is a fad? I personally care about if a woe is good for me or not. I don’t even care about the popularity of my woe but if I visited restaurants often, that could matter. And it’s nice to chat with people but there are billions of us so it’s hard to have a woe where I don’t find many people who eat at least remotely similar…

I never understood why being a fad says anything bad about a woe. What does it matter?

(B Creighton) #171

Yeah, I basically agree. Most of the medical establishment is still under the old low fat, a calorie-is-a-calorie mindset, and now I know it is wrong. It is plain wrong. I proved it to myself. I lost probably 30 pounds of fat while trying NOT to cut calories. I now believe the old school calorie cutting mindset is actually harmful to our metabolism unless you are someone eating 4000 calories a day and don’t live in the arctic. That is one of the reasons I chose keto - so I could lose fat without cutting calories or causing my basal metabolism to slow. I am very thankful to the keto community, and to people such as yourselves for giving newbies a better option, and dispelling the old myths. It is working people! Keep it up! The younger generation has changed, and demanded new foods, and that has given new opportunities to new companies in the food industry. That is really the only way the food industry is going to change… if the public stops buying their products, and buy new ones. Although the CEO of Pepsi, Indra Nooyi, paid a price for trying to change the company’s products, she did introduce a lot of healthier foods that basically saved the company. Change is in the air, and you see it with new products at the stores.

The basic low carb principle of keto has been around for a long time - weight lifters used it, the Atkins diet used it - it is just kinda hard for people to give up the carbs - especially sugar. Which is why we are where we are at. It is all over the world now - even in the remote parts of Polynesia as I pointed out. That is why big tobacco got into the food industry in the 80s - they could addict people with the dopamine hit from sugar. But as people realize that it is sugar making them fat, and giving them heart disease, and not saturated fat, many are willing to make the change. It is really not too hard. I didn’t starve myself at all. I kept myself satiated. Even my OMAD fast days weren’t bad. The thing is you won’t hear stop eating sugar on the news like you heard don’t eat saturated fat in the 70s. There were no advertisers of saturated fat in the 70s. There are many advertisers of sugary products now. They are some of our biggest food companies now. The networks are not going to put out a “stop eating and drinking their products” message now, and I imagine there will always be people to buy some… heck, I do. I still eat ice cream for dessert, and brownies at parties, etc, but when I make sweet things myself, I use alternative sweeteners. I recently added lemonade to my repetoire. I blend up a whole lemon, and sweeten it with stevia. It is really quite good. I feel keto is here to stay… the science now backs it. The results back it, We are in a public health crisis of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and other metabolic diseases, and it will become more expensive than anyone can afford if we don’t fix it. The expense will dwarf the covid pandemic. It is just not acute like covid, so it goes unaddressed.

However, although people under the old mindset still view keto as another fad, it is hard to maintain that view in the face of the new medical evidence, and the long-term results they see with people. I lost 30 pounds of fat in 5 or six months, while gaining at least 10 pounds of muscle. I consider that to be awesome results. All essentially for free… I didn’t pay any coach, although I did look into it, and didn’t buy any book. I didn’t really spend that much more on food either. But, I am willing to pay a little more for high quality food if that is going to make my health better… Bad health is much more expensive, and my more expensive food is still much cheaper than eating out, which is going to only worsen my health. I believe the public is slowly awakening to false low fat paradigm, and I will do all I can to help them.

(Robin) #172

A large portion of carnivores began on keto, with great success. As foods were eliminated, we were able to identify which ones cause problems for OUR body. In my case, that included veggies and nuts.

No matter tho, truly. That’s just me. I may have a lot of experience, research and opinions, but it’s still just me.

And one-off remarks like the rate of autism increasing when GMO soy was introduced…. As the mother of an adult son with autism, (who has researched ever possible causation for many years) I can get my dander up when folks throw out one-off “correlations” as if they are revelations from on high… and then move on.

Sorry. I realize I am being defensive. This is an area that is incredibly individual. My diet and my kid.

Actually, you could transfer your post to the “Show me the science” thread. There is a very high threshold there for debate and dueling theories and research. I believe you would enjoy it very much and receive a better response.

(B Creighton) #173

Fair enough :smile:


By eliminating most carbohydrates and starting on keto I’m doing exactly as you say, eliminating those foods that may be causing or worsening the calcific tendonitis.


Do you think it’s necessary or beneficial to stay keto or carnivore for the rest of your life ?


I’m in agreeance here. If it works for your needs who cares if it’s labeled a fad. Now we all know here the food pyramid they laid out for us is just another fad and guess what… it’s not working or we wouldn’t be looking for something better.


Thank you SecondBreakfast.
( I find myself having a second breakfast most days now)
Whats wrong with tomatoes? I may know the answer already but I want your take on it. Is it because they put tomatoes in the same category with potatoes, eggplant, peppers? It has something that aggravates arthritis? Did I leave any vegetable out on the list?

. I mixed it with IF and EF because, I’ll tell ya, after eating a 1-2 ribeye steaks with butter, I can go DAYS before I feel hungry again. It is an amazing feeling.

IF & EF whats that?

I had my second breakfast at McD’s this morning. Two round eggs, sausage patty and bacon with coffee (2 creamers)

I’ll leave the spinach to Popeye from now on.

Thank you


IF is intermittent fasting, there are different definitions, it’s below 8 hour eating window to me as I met that first and most often. But some other eating styles with different days are called IF too even without any big fasting window, I don’t know why.

EF is extended fast, that’s longer. Anything beyond a 24 hour fast is EF to me, IDK what the “official” definition is but it’s about right… The longer ones are called EF. And labels have no effect on my body anyway. I want EF for reasons like autophagy but it can’t seem to happen these years… It already got hard on low-carb but normally people fast better on low-carb and fat-adapted, not worse.

(Robin) #179

Good for you. And you may decide to stick with basic keto forever. You’ll still reap the benefits.


In my 20’s my father and I did a fast for 10 days before my mom jumped in and said stop it he’s losing too much weight. It was easy back then. I felt great fasting like I was on a high but then I went back to eating again. Since then my ability to fast has gone. If I miss a meal I feel like crap and I’m terrible to be around. I wonder why that is? I must be the grumpy old man.


I have had ‘frozen shoulder’ in both shoulders. The physiotherapist called it restrictive capsulitis. It’s an inflammatory process and injury in the connective tissues of the joints. The first time was when I was pre-diabetic and eating too many carbs. After a year of physiotherapy, anti inflammatory drugs, and acupuncture I had regained most of the range of movement and could start swimming and surfing again to regain strength.

During the sad times of mandatory vaccination in my country (2021) I developed a polyarthritis as a reaction to the medication. As part of that, I developed a frozen shoulder in my other shoulder. By eating a carnivore diet augmented with collagenous bone broth, with some physio, acupuncture, plus anti inflammatory drugs, I recovered from the frozen shoulder over about 8 weeks. Other joints took a bit longer.

My experience biases me to believe the foundation low carb nutrition sped up the healing with minimal longer term restriction nor scarring.


Off topic I truly believe there have been much negative effects since Covid. I don’t want to go into it here but some of us believe that these vaccines are actually making us sick. Either by injection or “being with” someone whose been fully vaccinated & boostered. My calcific tendonitis started August of 2021. This may or may not be a coincidence…