Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #183

You’re not wrong, but neither are the carnivores. A number of prominent carnivores eat that way because that’s how they feel healthiest, but if you feel better eating some plant foods, then more power to you. If your health problems don’t respond well to a plant-free diet, then that’s just how your body is.

The fact that the carnivore diet appears to be a fad in your eyes does not make it useless for those whom it helps. Amber O’Hearn and Georgia Ede are two prominent carnivores who find that their health problems return when they eat even a small amount of plant foods, so they simply avoid the foods that cause them problems.

Similarly, I used to know a guy who was virulently allergic to shellfish, and while he liked shellfish a lot, he avoided eating it, because anaphylactic shock is not a fun experience. Avoiding shellfish is not a fad diet for him. Another diet that people often consider to be a fad is a gluten-free diet, but anyone with coeliac disease who has experienced a bad reaction finds it easier to avoid all foods containing gluten. The fact that it may be a fad diet for non-coeliacs has nothing to do with the fact that they cannot safely eat gluten.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #184

In fact, there have been documented cases of people eating that many calories on an ad libitum ketogenic diet, and they all lost fat at the same rate as others in the study who ate fewer calories. It just goes to show that the body’s hormonal response to what we eat can trump the caloric value of how much we eat. If insulin is not forcing food to be partitioned into fat storage, then the body is capable of dealing efficiently with a wide range of inputs.


#185

I saw people having serious problems with people don’t eat gluten while not having any sensitivity or any physical problem with it… They understand that some people should avoid it, maybe they are in that group but somehow feel insulted when people like me don’t want to eat gluten… People are strange.

We may have zillion good reasons not to eat certain food groups. I have mine even without problems with anything but too much carbs (especially sugar) and maybe much peanuts. Gluten is actually one of my fav plant items as it’s so low-carb, protein-rich and satiating. I still don’t touch it until I am fine with my meat… I avoided it in my gluten-free years, that was to test if anything gets better. Nothing did as I minimized the usually accompaning starches and other carbs anyway and carbs is what makes a difference to me.
It’s complex. Items may be connected, something may trigger us in interesting ways, experiments, mental things… And people just decide that if we are able to eat something without a problems, we should eat it…

Magical bodies :D. You yourself didn’t slim down on keto either… So not everyone does it. So many people on this very forum experienced the very logical thing that eating over maintenance levels causes fat gain. I didn’t as I hardly gain and rarely overeat on keto, I just maintain everywhere and never lose fat eating about 2000 kcal or more as my body has zero reason to get out fat from the reserves then. 1800 kcal with sugars? Stable, longer term fat-loss (if I can eat so little longer term, only happened with fresh fat adaptation). 2000 on keto? Nothing, ever (I lost above it when I was fattier and ate way more carbs. not high-carb as that makes me hungry and things get not pretty). The hormonal changes may have some tiny effect for the lucky ones, maybe even a bigger one for some. But it matters little to us if it’s about fat-loss. It surely have other benefits (if I keep my non-animal carbs really low) so I don’t complain :slight_smile:

The human body obviously can use at reserves even on high-carb just fine when needed. We can’t even have high insulin all the time. It surely happens when it’s lower…?
I admit I never properly understand how these things work but it didn’t change the result. I have good reason to eat very low-carb most of time if I can but it alone doesn’t help, I need to find a way to eat less than what I did this far (well some carni days were pretty good, I realized I should focus on leaner pork to avoid my usual thing, overeating fat. OMAD is tricky and anyway, food choice is key).


#186

Right now I go to my favorite diner watch some patrons scoffing done french fries, sandwiches, etc feeling kind of low. Why can’t I eat that? On the other hand, most of the older patrons (this place has a a huge following) are overweight, obese and can hardly walk. Hardly the picture of health and I say to myself I’m doing something better.I’m on the keto diet for about a week now feeling pretty good plan on continuing but I was wondering after several months on the diet if I decide to have a sandwich once in awhile am I going to regret it?


#187

So the IF is Intermittent fasting. The intervals between meals are something like 6-12 hours for some people - like when you go to bed, then get up and eat your first breakfast… I decided to try a 16:8 schedule. 16 hours where I’d fast, and an 8 hour window when I’d eat. That 16 hours gives my body some time to rest, gets the metabolism working, and really starts teaching the body how to burn fat for nutrition when its hungry.
Then I moved to 18:6, the 20:4, and eventually to 23:1. From there, I moved to EF or Extended Fasting. 24 hours, then 36, 48, etc…up to 7 days. Done the 7 days a couple times. And Wow, is that refreshing!
You’ll see other abbreviations here like
OMAD = One Meal A Day, or
TMAD = Two Meals A Day.
ACV = Apple Cider Vinegar
HWC= Heavy Whipping Cream

So, the tomatoes fall into the same category as Eggplant, Peppers Potatoes and are considered Night shades. I have a friend w Rheumatoid Arthritis, and those bothered her to no end, creating flare ups. Now, some medical organizations poo-poo that whole idea and call it misinformation. However, Dr. Steven Gundry- points out the lectin content in many foods, including wheat, that really are culprits behind pain, inflammation, digestive disorders, bloating, etc. Lectins are a type of plant protien, and latches onto sugars in the body, and binds to fat. He calls them sticky proteins. (He peddles a lot of supplements, but I don’t get into that - his research is really eye-popping if you want a good read.)
Anyways, my friend w RA went against her doctor’s orders to not eat meat other than certain ones- she went full on carnivore- and OMG. She lost so much weight, went off all of her RA meds - and cannot believe how great she feels. She’s almost 20 years my senior, and runs circles around others her age. And, she’s a retired nurse. I saw her last year, and she looks like she went back in time, just so young and vibrant looking!

Its the fasting combined with carnivore that really did the job on me. If you want to learn more about it, Dr. Jason Fung can be found on Youtube. He does some really wonderful videos explaining fasting, how it works, and the benefits. Very easy to understand. He is a nephrologist in Canada, and talks about reversing diatbetes in his patients by implementing fasting. Fascinating stuff, really.

Skipping the first and second breakfasts today, and might even pass up elevensies. Have to wait and see. Don’t feel hungry at all. =) Cheers!


#188

I eat whatever I want… I definitely don’t ever want a traditional sandwich :smiley: Just a lot of very sweet fruits (I actually only want a taste but if I eat my super soft, super easy to eat pears 10 times a day…) but let’s not talk about that now.
I do want a sandwich with cheese and/or sausage and maybe even pickles (not carnivore but I eat whatever I want) sometimes but my bread is very good and fully carnivore and way, way, way superior over anything with starch. I am not into flour taste though breads manage to make it neutral. Still not as good as eggs. So I have my improved, better version.

I like to focus on that. You don’t need to sacrifice things if you want the food that is good for you, most of the time. That’s my way as a hedonist. I have a reason to keep my (non-animal) carbs quite low and I have something against certain type of carbs and even fat so no matter how fine I am after eating a packet of Timtams (inedibly sweet, yes but I use 1-2 liters of black coffee and it changes), I would train myself out of even just craving it regularly if I had that specific problem. Self-training is wonderful. I am stubborn and train myself since many years, I came a long way.
In the very beginning there was determination, novelty and curiosity so I didn’t really miss things then either (but it seems stopping using added sugar alone is hard for so many people so I guess I am lucky as it was the easiest thing ever. the same with grains, my beloved potatoes and others. Low-carb was easy, that came way before keto, I needed YEARS to go keto. So I needed much time and gradual changes, bigger jumps are obviously tougher for most). If I fancy something, I eat it so I had to learn to want the right stuff. And many of the right things are so amazing that they win over almost everything else even if the latter is special and rare and the right one is a staple.
It’s not perfect but most of us can handle some off eating here and there.

Maybe eating a sandwich isn’t bad because your body handle it unwell. But because you feed the mental/emotional/whatever need for it. You don’t get FREE. Maybe this isn’t for everyone but many of us have it like that. We should let it go, permanently. MAYBE an occasional taste is fine or not but happens but we don’t have this “I eat that stuff when I want”, no, we just forget about it and commit to some better woe and it just appears sometimes. I have the personality that it’s better to be pretty well committed instead of thinking “I can have this or that once a month… or when I slim down… or get better…”. No, I let it go, almost completely. Often completely. I need some leeway but my default woe I try to stick is strict enough. Accidents are fine but if I start to relax, things easily get out of hand.

I have experiences with some mild(? I mean many people have it WAY worse) compulsions. It’s wonderful to lose the mental NEED to eat certain stuff. Just because they exist. Just because you loved them before. Just because they are there, now and it would be sooo bad to skip it… Even if you know it’s not good for you. Sometimes I don’t even enjoy it, it’s just pure compulsion, maybe with some nostalgy… But things change.
So I appreciate when I lose interest in more and more items and food groups as time passes. I still eat plenty of things occasionally and I have my variety but it’s so much better than what I had in the past.

One week is such a short time, get used to it and I don’t think you should think too much about adding back carby items even very occasionally. Unless it’s what floats your boat, I myself daydreamed sometimes and I still think so much about food…


#189

“but my bread is very good and fully carnivore”

How can your bread be fully carnivore? Are some flatbreads which I love, pita, artisan for example carnivore breads? Thanks


#190

I used the “bread” word in a very wide sense, it’s actually just the role of bread. I use it as bread. I can put butter or lard on it, I eat fatty meat or cheese with it, it’s the same feeling as a sandwich that magically got perfect, losing the starch… I even wipe pans and plates with it sometimes, it needs to be not too crispy (very freshly made or old) for it though.
It’s a 100% egg sponge cake. I love it, barely can survive a day without it, too useful.

Powders in a bread are rarely carnivore. There is egg powder, I have ham powder (okay, that’s a very much not neutral bread but still may work sometimes), people use pork rinds… But the list is short.

My more normal looking bread (still nothing like carby bread, maybe partially the texure and it can form some okay crust) is the almost typical keto bread based on gluten. It’s… Not so good (but many people love it. so it’s a matter of taste). I eat it and it is closer to normal bread so works if I want a firmer, vaguely bread-like texture that totally allows proper spreading, it’s messier with my soft muffins… But it’s not nearly as taste as just eggs. I need to put a serious amount of wheat flour into it to be good, interestingly (but too much flour just makes it flour tasting for me, ew. balance is important but I am glad I don’t need to bother with it) but I still prefer my sponge cake muffins most of the time. Yes, those are a bit airy and soft, it can’t be helped, even adding egg powder couldn’t make it better just way more complicated… But it works for me.

I never heard about carnivore “bread” to buy… Many ketoers eat wheat flatbreads sometimes as it is light and not many carbs are in a single piece… And there are multiple topics about keto breads even on this forum. Usually much experimenting is included, it’s fun if one likes experiments, I do to some extent… But the result never was good enough for me. It worked for some roles but some good tasting general bread… That’s hard. My eggs won that competition but I am an egg maniac.


#191

So if it’s very low in carbs, like tortilla or pita it’s okay for keto once in awhile? But it’s a starch, no?


(Robin) #192

Picture those same people at night, trying to sleep with gert or acid reflux. Try to imagine how their joints ache from inflammation. Try to imagine how tired they are after that meal. It’s the price of admission for them.

Now try to remember your own personal price of admission for eating all that crap. Even if it’s just what you saw in the mirror and how you felt about yourself.

That’s what will eventually make the idea of a cheat meal seem ludicrous.
You got this!


#193

Yes Robin that’s exactly what I’m hoping for. Right now after a week I’m still hungry after just 3 hours.I’m drinking the liquid from the meat I slow cooked yesterday. I’m only about 5 lbs overweight so weight has never been the issue.

Some people believe it’s the parasites in your gut that make you feel hungry and craving all the junk food and sweets that they live on.


#194

Keto basically allows ANYTHING in the right quantity. And starch is better than sugar for many of us I am sure, it’s clearly true for me. Still, if one can get away without bread, it’s best not to use any. But if one eats some tiny starchy bread or give it up, well the first is better if keto is good for the one in question. My own keto was quite carby in the beginning (still ketosis and fat adaptation level but not nearly as good for me as being lower… but I couldn’t do more at that point), no starch though, I lost that part years before (I added it back for my almost keto bread though as it got WAY better that way and I almost never have it anyway). But I ate almost any kind of fruits and much vegs (it felt less than minimal to me) so each to their own. We have an allowance, priorities, capabilities and we should try to do what we think is best for us, all things considered.
I saw ketoers (the normal, <20g carbs ones at that) eating beans, tortilla and all kind of things I wouldn’t eat even on my low-carb. If they can squeeze it in and they consider it a good deal, fine. It’s their business. Sometimes it’s just a crutch for a while. Some people should go cold turkey, I did that with multiple food groups and individual items. Others need gradual changes, I did that with some other things. So I am mixed but probably most of us are to some extent. And there is the thing when we never give up something non-ideal but keep the amount or frequency ridiculously low.


#195

You mean you have 3 hours between your meals?
I don’t see anything wrong with it. I ALWAYS got hungry after 3 hours if I haven’t eaten enough for the day - until carnivore. Then I easily got hungry in 1 hour, oh I hate those days :smiley:

I have a few days per year when I last for more than 3 hours between meals (OMAD days not included). It was super odd when it first happened on low-carb, probably not in the first years… I don’t like those days either, it means I have 2 bigger meals so I overeat…

These things, as almost everything food related are individual. I saw certain things said about ketoers or fat-adapted people but they are just not generally true. Most of them aren’t true for me and some I have backwards.
Not every long-time ketoers can skip a meal effortlessly. Not every ketoers should do even IF let alone EF. Not everyone gets more energy or mental clarity, feels more healthy… Some of us can overeat and gain fat on keto quite effortlessly and without need. And so on.
And keto isn’t even magic :slight_smile: Just very, very helpful for many of us. It can be done in a wrong and unhealthy way. It may be unneeded, not the right woe or in the contrary, not strict enough.

I doubt that. Okay, IDK what parasites do but it’s not that simple.
I am sure my eaten carbs do that. If I refuse them, I don’t get cravings (okay, maybe for food, eggs, meat :smiley: but that’s fine).
There are people’s old habits too, I am sure that has an enormous effect on cravings too…


(Robin) #196

Oye! What a thought! I think it’s just the sweet siren song of carbs/sugar addiction trying to lure us back in.


#197

I eliminated all starches except maybe carrots, no potatoes bread or rice. Im eating some fresh salad greens and some steamed vegetables along with all kinds of meats, fish and chicken


(B Creighton) #198

I personally do not believe lifetime keto is “necessary.” Beneficial - probably. I found that when trying to gain muscle while on keto, it seemed beneficial to have a bit more carbs than I did when I started keto - the ketone count on my strips were “trace” by that time - but I still seemed to be losing inches, while gaining some weight. That seemed like a good result to me. I don’t know if you want to call it keto though… As I have said, I continued to lose weight even after quitting keto - I believe by continuing to eat some MCTs. I think that kept my fat burning on… I was eating some sugary desserts by that time, and eating a non-keto peanut butter, banana and raisin sandwich by that time almost every morning. So my breakfast was around 1000 calories. I believe keto was valuable for ramping up my metabolism a little bit - I actually was eating quite a bit - you have to to get 100-150 gr of protein in every day. It turned on my winter “fat-burning mode” as I call it, and that allowed me to probably gain some brown fat. I kept that process on by eating MCTs even after quitting keto.

Do I think keto would be good the rest of my life? Maybe. I see no problem with it done the way I did. That is why I chose it. My movements were quite regular and quick. As I have said I have had a few episodes in my life where antibiotics damaged my gut biome. The first was in my 20s, and the recovery was a long, hard learning process. It took me over a year to fully recover from that. That made my experience in 2020 more informed, and manageable, but it was still bad for a good month or two. I had lots of gas and discomfort. So I know at least some of the problems people can have eating plants when their gut biomes are damaged. That is why I strive to repair mine. That is also why I am very leary of going full carni. Once I am doing well, I do not want to risk damaging my gut biome. I know from past experience how bad that can be for me.

To answer your question more directly, I believe we are designed to eat meats and carbs. We are designed to eat nutrient dense foods. We are not plant eaters like cows or other ruminants. We need more concentrated nutrient plant foods. But in the fall, those fruits and carbs can put some fat on. We seem to be designed that way. It helped hunter gatherers survive the winter. But in the winter that shifted to a more ketogenic diet, and the ketones turned on the fat burning process - our mitochondria in our fat cells got their fat burning turned on with ketones, and uncoupled. That doesn’t happen in our muscles. The ketones don’t cause the mitochondria in our muscle cells to uncouple. Why is that? Because it is not advantageous to burn up extra fat when you aren’t using your muscles in the winter time. You would want your muscles to be efficient as possible so as not to use up all your fat stores.

So, that cycle is not a lifetime keto diet. I’m not saying it has to be, to be healthy, but I believe there are a lot of health advantages to learning what plant foods you do well on, and eating them. I quite enjoy the variety that way. I don’t think there is a large proportion of centenarians who are vegan. That presents health challenges for us - especially in building muscle. But, I also don’t see a large nuimber of centenarians who are carnivores. Maybe some people do better that way, but my approach would be to first try to heal my gut before trying carni. My personal belief is that if I have a diverse, healthy gut biome, I will be able to eat most plant foods. We are seeing a lot of people developing allergies. I understand that. I’ve had two anaphylactic episodes myself. For instance, it seems that people who don’t have a certain variety of Clostridium are likely to develop a peanut allergy. I believe there are just many things which can damage our gut biomes these days, and it is hard to know what to eliminate in order to address digestive problems. So, I take a shotgun approach to gut health, and throw a ton of things at it if I have issues. This last antiobiotic episode caused me to learn about bacteriophages, and use them… That was something completely new to me. But, I do believe it did something, because I became quite gassy for a few days - probably when the bacteriophages were attacking bad guys through their biofilms. Changing diet alone is not going to get rid of all those bad guys, but I did that too. I took the widest variety of probiotics I could find. I just threw the book at it, and got better much faster than 30 years ago. These digestive issues I’ve had just cause me to be very cautious, and not to want to do anything which can damage my gut biome. The style of Keto I adopted allowed me to do that as I have said. I could eat my veggies(fiber) and concentrated protein sources. I have said elsewhere that I consider myself to be a “hard gainer,” but that is in regards to muscle. I think I gained more muscle in that 4 month period of keto than I ever have in my life in that amount of time. I was just really impressed with my results. I enjoy eating some “saturated fats,” but I am typically not one to eat them just to eat fat. My new exception is MCT saturated fats. I now plan to include them year around to keep me a little more fat adapted. I eat other saturated fats for taste and satiety, but not for health reasons. I don’t particularly see them as being healthy… they are just a source of energy… they aren’t the boogey man they got painted as by Ancel Keys, and they generally are not going to make you fat unless your insulin is high. So, I don’t view myself as eating a high fat style of keto. I mostly just eat whatever fat is coming with my protein sources, and that keeps me satiated and happy. That ends up being keto if you cut the carbs enough. I do believe there are healthy fats, and they are in this order: 1. MCT fats, 2. unprocessed omega 3 and omega 6 polyunsaturated fats from their natural sources, 3. saturated fats, and monounsaturated fats.
All other fats are unhealthy imho 1. trans-fats, 2. refined polyunsaturated fats.
I believe this is why we find vegans and vegetarians with cardiovascular disease. Many have become so because they believed saturated animal fats are harmful, and wanted to avoid them, but we see they get cardiovascular disease anyway… probably because they switched to seed oils…maybe in combination with sugar. In nature these three fats always occur together: saturated fats, polyunsaturated fats, and monounsaturated fats. I believe they are all OK, and some are necessary. It’s the man-made fats that are the problem. Otherwise, we need to dispel the fat phobia still in much of society.


(Robin) #199

I believe I will remain keto or carnivore for the rest of my life. It’s hard to imagine settling for less than optimal heath again. At least for what is in my power. Never say never, and one day at a time, and all that. But hang in there long enough to see the difference and benefits before you predetermine how long you will eat this way.


#200

Thank you for your detailed analysis B Creighto
So you now include more carbs in your diet. Exactly what foods does that include? How much how often? Thank you


#201

There are TKD and CKD for people who find that better for their workout performance and looks… Some people need more carbs around workouts and do TKD. It’s probably partially individual and partially depends on the seriousness/intensity of the workout. Beyond some level our body needs the help of carbs too as it just can’t get the necessary energy from fats that quickly, something like that. Even the most hardcore ketoers eat carbs when they do SUPER intense workouts as far as I know.
I never needed carbs for such reason as I just have some minimal/moderate exercise and that’s not very intense either. And probably my individual factors are “right” too.

Of course some people need more carbs than others anyway, no matter their exercise. And some people have other reasons to consume carbs (the item has some important nutrient they don’t get from elsewhere, emotional reasons - I can understand those too. I am in a loving relationship with all my fruits, after all. as long as I feel fine with them, I see no reason to stop eating them sometimes and in moderation)…

If we talk about keto for the rest of our lives… I have no idea what the future will bring. I surely never will go back to high-carb (unless it’s some carby armageddon where I eat high-carb or die. hard to imagine it, honestly as I typically need more fat and not any less protein if I eat much more carbs so it’s easier to skip the carbs but I never did some survival armageddon type feeding in my life), I knew that in the very beginning of low-carb.
I have my off times though. Usually low-carb.
But keto just wasn’t strict enough, it’s very hard to do for me now too… So it seems I will keep my on/off carnivore-ish (with less frequent and less serious off days as time passes). I eat whatever I want and it’s good enough for my body so why to change? Force-feeding carbs is something I definitely refuse to embrace so yep, keto stays with me just not 365 days a year (that would be only one off day per 4 years, that’s not enough for me :slight_smile: I could do it I suppose but it would feel very restrictive and I would hate it. I want my freedom. It’s interesting that freedom usually comes by strictness and sometimes I need to relax my ways for it).
I always find very odd reading that people shouldn’t do keto very long term (the non-newbies surely read many such articles and possibly the newbies as well). Not because it’s nonsense as keto isn’t bad (some styles for some people but not in general as many people like to think because they need a target for their hate and criticism and they don’t do keto so it’s a nice target from their viewpoint) but because I immediately feel protective of my body that would suffer from forceful carb eating. My mind too, actually. I hate most forceful things and I have a right to give my body what it loves.
I protect my right to do IF with the same passion. I needed it from the very beginning on keto as that is my natural timing. It just feels right. Very low-carb is the same. Makes no sense to abandon it. And after some carnivore times my really off days (so the not even keto ones) became disappointments most of the time. They are just not a good idea most of the time. So (a stricter type of) keto must stay in my life as my default woe. It’s pretty clear for me since several years and I seriously doubt it will change. Even if I could go back and feel as healthy on high-carb as I did back then… I experienced something much better since then and it simply changed my life. I promptly burned the bridge so that’s it. (I could build another but ONLY if low-carb becomes impossible.)
And when I went even lower, it was a bit similar. I can’t do backwards things, that’s not the hedonist way. I enjoy being lower more. Even the food is better, I would miss it if I had to sacrifice some for some not that tempting carbs (but I usually just eat carbs on top and overeat. I am quite against that too). It’s not even a choice for me, I just can’t do that without some very serious outside force making me.

But I got carried away as so often. Hopefully it gave someone some informative perspective or entertainment, who knows?


#202

TKD & CKD? You also mention carbs specifically what carb foods do you mean? Bread if so what kinds of bread. Pasta, whole grain, spinach? Rice? Brown, White, Jasmine. etc? What other carbs? Thank you