Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet

(Bacon enough and time) #123

I haven’t really checked out Mikhaila Peterson, but her story is impressive. Another YouTube personality you might enjoy is Kelly Hogan. These two women have a more experiential approach to conveying information, which can be very useful. On the other hand, my preference is for the drier and more-boring styles of people who cite research. There is room for both, I just happen to have a preference for data.


Kelly Hogan was one of those people Ms Peterson interviewed that I saw. I know what you mean when you speak of those relating their own anecdotal experience on these diets as opposed to those who cite research. Some may question their stories as they all seem to become coaches and profit from doing so. I want to hear from those who have nothing to gain by telling their stories

(Robin) #125

For some reason, I find this yoga stretch adorable and usually ends with one hind leg stretched out too.


Is there any real proof that animal fat clogs the arteries?

(Bacon enough and time) #127

There was a study done, about a century ago, in which rabbits (obligate herbivores) force-fed cholesterol (an animal food) did tend to accumulate cholesterol in their arteries, but research by Ancel Keys definitively showed that dietary cholesterol has no effect on cholesterol levels in human beings. Keys’s subsequent hypothesis showed that it was dietary saturated fat that affected cholesterol, but that research has shown to be invalid.

As for the question of whether cholesterol causes cardiovascular disease, there is actually quite a bit of evidence to show that it does not. I’ve discussed this point quite often on these forums, so I’ll refrain from clogging up yet another thread. The best we can figure, so far, is that the cholesterol in arterial plaque is there as part of the healing process. So (to quote one of my favourite sarcastic remarks) blaming cardiovascular disease on cholesterol is very much like blaming fires on the presence of fire trucks.

If anything clogs our arteries, it is more likely our sugar intake than anything else. But the sugar industry bought off key researchers forty or fifty years ago, so that hypothesis has never been examined.


Your response confirms my belief. You can’t trust drs, advertising, big pharma, etc. They all have an agenda and it’s NOT our health they’re concerned with. I think the margarine industry made a killing this way. Thanks for your reply.


Apologies folks!

Stressed out at present…no excuse.


(Robin) #130

We’ve all been there. Glad to have you back.

(B Creighton) #131

Hi Trucha,
I did keto to lose fat while gaining muscle, and not for inflammation problems, but I have some comments. If you are doing keto for shoulder calcification, I would strictly avoid raw spinach. Raw spinach is quite high in oxylates and phytates. As some have mentioned oxylates can form crystals in the body. I eat little spinach, and now I only eat it if it is boiled in a stew. Steaming is not good enough to remove the oxylates. You did not mention swiss chard, but it is to be avoided raw as well for the same reasons. I did eat a raw salad when I did keto this last winter. It was called a kale salad, which I got from Costco. It had some chopped brocolli and such. I ate it when I didn’t eat other vegetables such as broccoli or asparagus. Kale has a small fraction of the oxylates of spinach. I would say lettuces are generally fine raw. I personally would cook all other greens such as collard greens. Carrots are too high in carbs for keto.

You may also wish to consider supplementing with vitamin K2. I believe this helped lower my blood pressure, and reduce inflammation in my arteries. K2 will supposedly help move calcium to the right places in your body, which should be helpful with your shoulder. To get calcium into your bones, you first have to eat enough protein. Bone is mineralized protein. Don’t be scared to get your daily protein. Vitamin K2 and vitamin D should help to move that calcium out from where it doesn’t belong, but you also need potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, and a few other minerals to build bone. I supplement with boron and magnesium. If you are not getting any sun in the winter time, I would definitely consider vitamin D. When I got my blood tested even by Thanksgiving I was at the very bottom of normal, and that was while I was getting a little from a daily vitamin. You want your vitamin D up to help calcium go where it is supposed to go.

I generally avoid all processed meats, but when doing keto, I found some grass fed beef hot dogs made by Teton which were minimally processed with no preservatives etc. Preservatives and emulsifiers can be detrimental to the gut lining which in turn can be pro-inflammatory. My wife is trying to reduce inflammation with keto, and it has only been about two months, but seems to be starting to work. She is complaining less anyway. She has lost over 30 pounds now.

You previously asked about Mayo. Standard mayonnaise is now all made with soybean oil. Basically all American made seed oils are GMO which means they probably get sprayed with glyphosate. These seed oils are all processed which removes any natural antioxidants nature puts with them such as vitamin E. Polyunsaturated oils are easily oxidized while cooking, and as such are pro-oxidative, and therefore inflammatory. I feel they are bad news. Spend the extra money for mayo made with avacodo oil which has much more monounsaturated fat. Make sure there are no added sugars.

BTW the reason I chose keto is so I could keep eating vegees such as broccoli, cabbage and asparagus. I wanted the plant fiber in cruciferous vegetables to maintain a healthy gut. A healthy gut will have some probiotics which turn that fiber into butyrate. Cells in the colon called colonocytes will in turn make ketone bodies out of that butyrate, which are of course ketogenic and will help you on your keto journey. So I feel cruciferous vegetables are pro-ketogenic, and made sure to eat some every day.
You are on the right path to better health my friend.


This is excellent advice for what ails me the calcific tendonitis of the shoulder. I wasnt alware of the oxylate issue but now that you informed me I will be mindful of raw spinach which really I didnt eat too much of.

Is steamed spinach ok ?

Ive been taking vitamin K2 for several months now but I haven’t seen any improvement.

I’m getting used to seasoning with only salt. Like you though for now I’m strictly keto including salads and steamed vegetables in my diet.

Weight has never really been an issue with me but I could stand to lose a couple of inches around my waist, truthfully.

Thanks for all your advice you have been very informative

My Russian friend says chew the softer bones of chicken to get your calcium. Wonder if you ever heard of this?

How do I find out which foods are high in oxylates? Thank you


This is more or less my philosophy, although I will gradually go carnivore…soon.

I won’t lie, I’m going to miss my cruciferous veg, especially the red cabbage and mushrooms.

If carni doesn’t deliver for me, I’ll be straight back to keto(vore), which has delivered for me already. But I will give it a go to see.

(Robin) #134

Ketovore is a very happy place to live, if veggies don’t bother you.


Hope this isnt gross but has anyone noticed their urine go dark yellow a few days into the keto diet? What does this mean? If you want to make jokes that’s fine I’m ok with that too

(Bacon enough and time) #136

It’s because your diet is mineral-rich and your bladder capacity has increased. Totally normal.

Even as a carb burner, I used to see the same effect when taking a particular daily multivitamin.

(Megan) #137



Good to know. Thanks. I always thought the greener the veggie the more nutrient rich it was. I wonder if Popeye has calcific tendonitis!?

(B Creighton) #139

Popeye always ate his spinach out of a can, which was highly heated/cooked! Spinach and dark green veggies are nutrient rich, but sometimes with nutrients come some things you don’t want so much… like oxylates. Many plants have developed many mechanisms to prevent animals from eating them. Lectins aren’t so great for us either, but we learned to cook them out.

Remember that Ancel Keyes guy who started the whole fat phobia thing? Did you know he did his own RCT study? It was probably one of the most accurate ever done because the subjects were hospitalized mental patients and had to eat what was made for them. Over 5 years the ones who ate his corn oil died more than the ones who ate the standard higher saturated fat diet. He didn’t publish the results. About 15 years later his co-study partner did. What a travesty. He was right that saturated fat tends to increase serum LDL, but that has never been shown to be bad. In fact numerous studies have found that even those with higher LDL live longer - including his very controlled study.

Trans-fats are virtually a saturated fat… the added hydrogen is just in the trans position instead of the cis position(and no, this is not a sex pun). At the time Americans were eating tons of Crisco - a hydrogenated fat. Why didn’t this get the scrutiny? The glycation caused by too much fructose is pro-oxidative, and the polyunsaturated oils are very subject to being oxidated if not already oxidized by the time they get eaten… Oxidized LDL is NOT good. So if high LDL becomes oxidized, you probably are on your way to heart disease… Notice I said probably. No one has as yet shown definitively what causes heart disease, but in Ancel Keyes’ day there was a researcher pointing to sugar… he got ignored. The sugar industry helped him get ignored.

But while we are on the subject, I think I was on my way there. My blood pressure was just shy of hypertensive levels, and after taking K2 for months, it finally began to drop. Vitamin D by itself didn’t do it, and I took 10,000 IU vitamin D the whole prior winter. I also supplemented with some strains of Bacillus subtilis which are known to be able to colonize the gut. Bacillus subtilis makes vitamin K2 from K1. So keep eating those greens and veggies to get vitamin K1. Many Bacteriodes sp also make K2, but I have never found them in a supplement. My theory is mine got taken out by a round of antibiotics I had to take. I of course can’t prove it, but if K2 over the course of a year could drop my blood pressure 30 points, it must be doing something good… but you will have to be somewhat patient. Removing unwanted calcium is not a quick process, and is not my forte’. But removing the inflammation should help.

I season with thyme, rosemary, bay leaves, pepper, garlic, and numerous other things, and did so all through keto. No need to limit yourself there. We are just aiming for low carbs and low inflammation. My wife started making a salad dressing with MCT oil, and she likes it. It is a vinegrette recipe. There are tons on the internet. I now consider MCTs to be healthy fat, and believe they are a secret for centenarians. They are a saturated fat I try to get more of… so I use lots of minimally processed coconut. and goat yogurt/products.


My uncle had stomach cancer and had half his stomach removed. This is many years ago. After his surgery his physician forgot to prescribe vitamin K and he was feeloing very poorly could hardly walk. After they discovered the mistake he was prescribed the vitamin K and began to feel better again. I’m glad to report he is still alive and well at 97 in assisted living with my Aunt 91 in Florida.

What is MCT oil? What type of vinegar do you recommend.

BTW I continue to cut small pieces of garlic and add it to my salad every day

Even though Im not strictly carnivore I try to limit as much as I can on keto to reduce as much as possible the inflammation. But I must say I do miss my mustard.

Thank you

(B Creighton) #141

MCT stands for mid-chain triglyceride. Your saturated fats start at short chain triglycerides such as the acetic acid in vinegar. As the carbon chain gets longer, they get called mid-chain triglycerides starting at C6-C10. These actually have names after the latin word for goat, capre. Caproic acid(C6), capryilic acid(C8), and capric acid (C10). Goat milk and hence goat cheeses and goat yogurt have about twice the amount of MCTs as cow dairy. Sheep dairy is also high in MCTs. Coconut also has MCTs plus a lot of lauric acid, a C12 saturated fat. MCT oil is liquid at room temperature like the seed oils, so is easily used to make salad dressings. MCTs are very stable because all the extra carbon bonds are used by hydrogen. These bonds are very unlikely to become oxidized with an oxygen.

What happens with polyunsaturated fats and to a lesser extent with monounsaturated fats(one C=C double bond), is that at least one of the hydrogen bonds is replaced by a double C=C carbon bond. This leaves a potentially extra electron which can get bonded to an oxygen. However, this is about 40 times less likely to happen with monounsaturated fats. Polyunsaturated fats in nature always come with an antioxidant, which protects them from oxidation. The refining process removes the protecting anti-oxidants like vitamin E. You should really get your polyunsaturated fats from their whole food source rather than refined in a bottle, but restaurant foods are full of this stuff. I feel they, along with sugar, are the culprit in our rising metabolic issues - definitely not saturated fats. If insulin is high, the LCTs will tend to get stored by the body, but this is not a disease process - it is a “natural” one.

There are 4 typical “saturated fats:” lauric acid, myristic acid, palmitic acid and stearic acid. These are long chain triglyceride molecules, LCTs. These are the ones that get stored as fat on our bodies, maybe after some conversion. Our bodies store fat this way because they are stable, and will still be there when we need it. Does it make much sense that something nature does for us would give us heart disease?

The eskimos had basically a carnivore diet, and had no heart disease until western foods came along. However, I am not one to promote a carnivore diet, and the 68 year life expectancey of eskimos doesn’t do much to convince me to switch. The islanders of Sardinia and Ikaria in the Mediterranean eat a lot of goat products. Those that do tend to live into their 90s and 100s. Ikaria now beats Okinawa for the longest lived population.

What happens with MCTs is their smaller size allow them to pass right through the intestinal wall, and get converted into ketones in the liver. They bypass the digestive path taken by LCT saturated fats, and don’t ever seem to get stored as saturated fat. Instead they just raise the serum level of ketones, which I believe acts as a signalling molecule to the mitochondria of the fat cells to burn fat. In other words when ketones are present it seems the fat cells believe it is winter time - carb foods “are low” so the liver must be converting fat into ketones - this is what happened in winter time in times gone by, and our bodies adapted by storing up fat in harvest time when insulin was high, and burning it off in winter when ketones were present. And yes our bodies will burn these ketones made from MCTs right along with glycogen. So to me MCTs are a “healthy fat” which will keep us trim. It seems that if ketones are present, the body will burn them. What is not burnt literally gets breathed and urinated out. This is how I continued to lose weight and lost 18 pounds this spring after having “quit” keto. I moved back to my higher carb breakfast with peanut butter, banana and raisin sandwiches, and higher carb dinners like bean chili, sweet potatoes, etc, and just continued to lose weight. However, I did keep sugar intake moderate. This apparently kept my insulin low enough to allow some fat to get burnt.

It doesn’t really matter what kind of vinegar you use. Acetic acid is acetic acid. ACV gets touted alot, and ads some flavor, but if you don’t care for it, you can try a white vinegar.

(Edith) #142

I’m replying to your original post without reading through the entire thread, but I am just mentioning my experience.

I tried pure carnivore a few years ago to see if it would help the arthritis in my lower back. The only way I can describe it is that my lower vertebrae felt “sticky”, like they would get stuck and I would have to wiggle around to get them unstuck. While they were stuck, it was quite painful. Standing for more than a few minutes would really aggravate my lower back.

I do believe my carnivore trial helped. But, I don’t necessarily belief it was actually only eating meat that caused the improvement. I believe it was because of removing oxalates from my diet. Oxalates are only found in plants, spinach and nuts being big sources of oxalates.

The oxalates themselves are little crystals that can accumulate in our bodies. They tend to settle in joints and other places they don’t belong. They can cause a variety of health problems which I will not go into here. Looking up Sally Norton on the web is a good place to begin getting info if you decide this is something you might want to know more about. Years of eating “healthy” greens, nuts, and other high oxalate foods (think of being a vegan or vegetarian or drinking lots of green smoothies) can cause a lot of oxalate build up.

When you stop eating oxalate containing foods, such as going carnivore, your body will start dumping the accumulated oxalates. It can be a very uncomfortable, maybe even painful experience, but in the long run, removing those oxalates is a good thing. By the time I ended my carnivore trial, my “sticky” vertebrae had greatly improved. I was on that trial for seven months. I am still very close to carnivore but I did add some low oxalate fruits back into my diet. So far, my back is still feeling much improved.

I don’t know if your shoulder problem is just inflammation or arthritis related. It could be caused by years of oxalate build up. If that’s the case, a thirty day trial is not going to be near enough time to bring about healing.