Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet

#223

Sorry guys but this topic is almost so enticing, I had to do my weight food pyramid too :smiley: Maybe itā€™s interesting for someone.
I donā€™t fully remember and my days were different but I guess my typical old keto day was something like thisā€¦
2% fruit
4% added fat
10% oily seeds
28% eggs
56% vegetables.
I ate all kind of fruits I was able to eat in tiny amounts and I had nothing against higher-carb vegs (not the super high ones like dry legumes but carrot, onion, garlic and the like. of course I only used the low-carb ones in bigger amounts).
No sugary stuff of course but plenty of sweet desserts (mostly eggs and oily seeds).

What have I now on a good carni dayā€¦? I guessā€¦
40-50% eggs
40-50% meat
0-4% dairy
0-1% added fat

I never was taught there is anything wrong with very high-fat, be it saturated or not, personally (definitely didnā€™t heard it as a kid, now there are such attempts but people are stubborn and love their fatty pork here). Mom ate pork fat tissue (or what should I call pork belly without any meat?) on bread as a frequent meal, itā€™s a normal thing here but I disliked it. I still want meat with it.
Of course even this country had changes even before I was born, seed oils were the norm at that point but no one talked against eggs or meat for a long time, at least I didnā€™t notice. I always have a feeling we had it better hereā€¦ There wasnā€™t even an early cereal craze, cereal was unknown to me as a young kid, later it arrived, I just saw no point in it. I couldnā€™t recognize it as something edible.

But I had sweets at the end of nearly every meal, that was a problematic habit I hadnā€™t even any idea I shouldnā€™t do. I respect parents who save their kids from that. itā€™s one thing to have a treat here and then, I am not for being super strict, I doubt that works well for many kids but forming the habit that makes us wanting a dessert after nearly every meal even after changing our woe and sticking to it for many yearsā€¦ sigh I have that. Okay, I donā€™t crave sweets or carbs at all but I do want something different, special, dessert-like at the end of my meal way too often.
Certain things are very hard to get rid of, even if we change and we are in no danger to go back to old habits. They still can be annoying.

(B Creighton) #224

To be honest, this last winter was the first time I did keto. I quit in March, but did change the way I ate as I have described. So, I definitely eat less carbs than I did pre-keto, and changed the meats I eat. Before I learned what I have, I wasnā€™t willing to pay the extra money for grass fed meats, etc. Cheap was the order of the day, but that has changed for me now. We have one of the American presidents to thank for thatā€¦

I havenā€™t experienced any set backs yet. In fact when I quit keto, I kept the goat yogurt in the morning. At first I gained back about 6 pounds right away, but that was glycogen stores and water weight. I just kept losing weight once I got back up to 192. In the next two months another 18 pounds just fell off me - at that time I had also quit the strength training. Now I am 175. I just quit because at a certain point of weight loss it gets harder to put on muscle, and my progress seemed stalled. So I added some carbs back. I guess at that point I hadnā€™t really quit, but I was only trace keto. Later, I just officially quit because I had accomplished most of what I set out to do. I was size 36. But then more fat just kept falling off, and I am now size 34 - even that is feeling loose on me. If I can get the results and still enjoy some naughty carbs, why not? I love pies, ice cream, chocolate, and various other sweets, and if I eat them after I have filled myself with protein and fats, I am not so tempted to over-indulge. I am probably driving up my insulin kind of high, but that is only once per day, and I seem to burn it right back off. So, I allow myself that once per day. The only pressure was my own habits and desires. :grin: That will change tho if I experience health set backs such as increased blood sugar, blood pressure or fat gain. Back when I had a family at home, that was a useful tool too. I made our boys eat all their dinner before they could have dessert.

Your dad and my parents felt that saturated fats were bad because the news, drs and advertising continually hit us with that BS. Today the news is still bias in that and other ways not necessary to go into in this discussion.

Yep. That is why big tobacco got into the food biz. They realized they could addict Americans to sugar for that dopamine hit while telling us ā€œitā€™s low fatā€¦ā€ How right they were. Now we have sugar in like 80% of processed foods. I just donā€™t buy the vast majority of them, and stick to the sides of the storeā€¦ I also donā€™t eat out much.

#225

I thought strict keto diet is limited to some whole fat dairy,eggs,meats, fowl, fish, veggies, salads but not fruits because theyā€™re high in carbs?

#226

So Iā€™m guessing if and when my shoulder heals on keto I can go back a little on starchy veggies like potatoes, corn.Grains like rice and oats as long as I stay away from the highly processed foods?

(Robin) #227

Nooooo! Add back the stuff you stopped after their absence has healed you? Please, no.
Believe your body.

My arthritis and inflammation disappeared after I figured out my triggers-foods and ELIMINATED them. If I stray, my joints will complain quickly and loudly.

Believe your body.

(B Creighton) #228

Mmmm. Not too much. I have actually kind of sworn off corn kind of altogether unless I know it is not GMO, and is not sprayed with glyphosate - itā€™s really sad that this is what it has come to. Glyphosate is very damaging to gut bacteria. It was actually patented as an antibiotic before being used as an herbicideā€¦ Can you imagine drinking the stuff? I am going to put a can of organic corn in some chili tonight with grass fed ground beef. Fresh non-GMO corn here is now astronomicalā€¦like over a dollar an ear. So anything sprayed with glyphosate can damage the gut bacteria and the gut lining, which can lead to inflammation and leaky gut, which can lead to inflammation all over the body. So since you have some inflammation, you have to be choosey.

Unfortunately, oats can be worse, even though they are not GMO. Sometimes they get sprayed with glyphosate about 2 wks before harvest so as to be able to time the harvest. So now, I only buy organic oats. If you buy them, do not get the instant variety - that vastly increases the glycemic effect. Just get plain or steel cut oats, and then make them the night before you want to eat them and refrigerate them. That will cause the starch to become a resistant starch - vastly decreasing their glycemic impact. I have started mixing some canned pumpkin in with mine. A study found that pumpkin extract inhibited increases in plasma protein carbonyls, suggesting that the fruit protects muscle proteins from degradation during vigorous exercise. (2) The naturally orange pumpkin flesh tells us that it is full of carotenoids like beta-carotene, cryptoxanthin, lutein, and zeaxanthin, all of which help improve human health in general. Pumpkin also contains high levels of nicotinic acid and trigonelline, which have been shown to improve glucose uptake by muscle cells. In addition, pumpkin contains dehydrodiconiferyl alcohol, a plant metabolite known to sabotage glucose uptake by fat cells.

I am still limiting my starchy carbs - I eat them at least half as oftenā€¦ so do with that info what you will.

My belief is stuff like this is why a lot of people have chosen to eat carnivoreā€¦ Glyphosate is so prevalent in the food chain, that people are having all kinds of issues with various plant foods. The gluten issue can be related as well, because sometimes wheat is sprayed with glyphosate to time the harvest - as much as 50 percent of durum wheat in pasta has glyphosate residues. Well if people are constantly eating an antibiotic, no wonder they are having problems - and no wonder when they go over to Europe they find they are able to eat their breads, etc. Then there are pesticides and other chemicals sprayed on crops. Our food industry is on the verge of collapse because our once rich soils have become so degraded - that is also a large source of our CO2 folksā€¦ The soil is capable of losing or sequestering large amounts of CO2.

We need the small farmers back who will be good stewards, and righteously care for the soil we eat our food off of.

#229

There is nothing wrong with lean dairy and lean meat, itā€™s perfectly ketoā€¦ Fish is almost always very lean too.

But keto doesnā€™t ban ANY items. It requires us to eat enough to go into and stay in ketosis, thatā€™s it, a carb limit. Itā€™s up to us what we do with it. I ate high-carb items because it didnā€™t do any noticeable harm to me (or much otherā€¦ my body can handle a tiny sugar) but was useful and nice. Okay, I still eat them but even less and even more rarely.

But berries are always considered keto friendly fruits in the right amounts anywayā€¦ I just never cared if itā€™s, like, strawberry (not a berry) or banana (a berry), only looked at the carbs in portion and its effect on me (mentally, mostly. I needed my freedom). Well one is sweets and the other is fruit to me, very different group but thatā€™s not the point.
The same with vegs, I ate any I fancied or was important to the dish (or not but my SO put it into the dish anyway. I wonā€™t skip a convenient, tasty, good food just because it has high-carb items in small amounts).
I saw people regularly eating bread and dry legumes on keto so I am not even the worst (though there was a day with carrot cake with raisinsā€¦ wine with a 20% sugar contentā€¦ etc.). Itā€™s all about the carbs if only ketosis is the goal, at least it usually works like that. Most of us donā€™t only do keto but we are health-conscious too so we donā€™t eat any low-carb crap. I had my blacklist since ages before keto and they stayed with me.
Some items had to go as I couldnā€™t afford the carbs (eating a super tiny amount isnā€™t always realistic or worth it)ā€¦ But later when I could eat carnivore most of the time, I could afford higher-carb things in bigger amounts, itā€™s a bit oddā€¦ I never had more than 1-3g (if I was willing to sacrifice things, 5) carbs for my fruits (and I often split it between several kinds) but now I have way more if I feel like it.

NOPE.
Or we canā€™t know it but it sounds an epically bad idea if keto is really good for you. Okay, sometimes itā€™s a mixed bag, IDK about thatā€¦ But if you heal on keto and feels good, why would you ruin it again? But if you canā€™t do keto but it still helps, you may add something carefully in order to find your near ideal woe, not as strict as keto (keto seems so extremely indulgent now to me :smiley: my default days are no-dairy carnivore-ish on a budget AND I need to avoid fat as much as I can too. having some super strict day helped way before carnivore too, it changed my perspective and I appreciated my allowance more) but definitely not your old one that didnā€™t work well enough.

Even if you add something, donā€™t do it with some super high-carb, low-protein itemsā€¦ Unless itā€™s important for you and you can eat them in the right amount. In the beginning I had rice sometimes, it suits curry so much but it was only 10-15g (in raw weight). Of course if you choose some simple low-carb, you can afford more but be careful. Adding rice or other mostly carb item is a super bad idea for most of us here for various reasons. They change my personality, make me hungry and greedy. I will inevitably overeat and definitely feel worse. Just a tad but I want the best.
Many others suddenly get back their problems they lost with ketoā€¦

Whatever the future brings, you barely started. Donā€™t think about adding carbs galore, get used to keto and see if itā€™s for you.

#230

There is nothing wrong with lean dairy and lean meat, itā€™s perfectly keto

I thought whole milk is better than lean milk as well as fatty meats

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #231

The point of a ketogenic diet is to keep insulin low. To do that usually requires restricting carbohydrate intake, since insulin secretion is greatest when we eat carbohydrate.

Since the bodyā€™s two energy sources are glucose and fatty acids, it is necessary, when restricting carbohydrate intake (which is glucose molecules arranged in various ways), to replace that energy with an alternative source. So a low-fat, low-carb diet is not a good idea, because we need energy from somewhere. The advantage to fat as an energy source is that it stimulates almost no insulin secretion, apart from the bare minimum necessary for survival.

#232

It depends. I need somewhat leaner meats or else my macros become wrong (way too much fat). Really lean meats, if I liked them, would be wonderful as a staple as I could afford eating my beloved non-satiating fatty items (like fatty dairy) and probably still wouldnā€™t overeat fatā€¦

But some people just loves chicken breast or lean fish so eat them. Why not? There are no rules about eating a ton of fat - and one easily can eat it using lean items along with fattier ones.

I am quite passionate about lean dairy, I keep forgetting their existence and consider them abominationsā€¦ Normal milk (2.8 and 3.5%, sometimes 3.6% fat, itā€™s definitely low-fat in my world, even for a liquid! I prefer raw and at least 5% but itā€™s harder to get. no problem, whipping cream usually works better) is already more sugary than fatty or protein rich, making it even less fatty sounds weirdā€¦ Most of us donā€™t even have milk or just rarely and little, itā€™s very, very sugary. And many people have problems with lactose or milk proteins anyway. But each to their own, I had a phase where I bought the leanest cream I could (10%) because it worked in my coffee, it came in 180ml packages so I didnā€™t overeat fat because of cream (I did it because of other things). Similarly, quark (low-fat quark is super bad and sour to me, I buy the normal one but thatā€™s quite low-fat too) can come so very much handy when my chosen meat for the day is fattyā€¦ Some of us need more protein and not very high fat. I canā€™t avoid eating some of my beloved very fatty items so I need to balance them out with leaner protein sources.

Some people even do PSMF, much protein, very little fat. Thatā€™s keto too as itā€™s about the carb intake, not the fattiness of the diet.
Some people need 50% fat, some other 95%, itā€™s not 70-75% for everywhere. I am better with lower and considering I love my eggs and I canā€™t eat fully lean meat (unless I pair it with something fatty), I need lean items to pull it off. Much lean items if I want to indulge in non-satiating low-protein fatty dairy but I rather go no-dairy than eating lean meat and too many egg whites (I still tend to focus on egg whites over yolks, I donā€™t want to do it more seriously).
BUT I do love some egg dishes with twice as many whites than yolksā€¦ So there are multiple reasons to focus on lean stuff. My fat intake takes care about itself just fine.
So itā€™s quite individual. Depends on our needs, priorities, tasteā€¦

I bought milk today because I am sick and miserable and my last package of cream went off and I missed some nice fresher dairy than slightly aged cheese, they are so different.
And now I do my absolute best to avoid it as much as comfortably possible, my SO will use a big part of it and I use it in tiny amounts because if I just drink it normal (itā€™s liquid and nice, feels good in summer so I drink it quickly and easily like waterā€¦ itā€™s mostly water and nothing agressive so no wonder itā€™s easy to drink), thatā€™s 34g sugar in a few minutes or hoursā€¦ And I have other carbs in my day.
Itā€™s probably not a good idea to drink 34g sugar quite quickly anywayā€¦ I only did it once to test things (and enjoy milk) since carnivoreā€¦ I did it several times on high-carb as a kid. Itā€™s an item too easy to consume much of and its satiation effect is probably around zero for me due to its macros.

#233

So if and when one heals from a keto diet, they should never eat an ounce of say brown rice or sweet potato again? Not to mention refined or sugary foods

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #234

As our body becomes more insulin-sensitive, we can tolerate a bit more carbohydrate and still keep insulin low enough for us to stay in ketosis. But returning to the standard American diet is likely to bring about a return to the problems that made us want to go keto in the first place.

Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt, the doctor behind the Diet Doctor site, likes to joke that keto is like showering, in that if we stop doing it, we soon lose the benefits of it.

A lot of forum members have found that, over time, their tastes changed enough that they donā€™t really want to return to a high-carb diet, even if they could safely eat carbs again. But that is entirely individual, Iā€™m sure.

#235

Iā€™m sure if I continue seeing with positive results Iā€™ll want to continue with the keto lifestyle. But an indulgence once in awhile should not bring us back to the previous condition. Someone here mentioned one day a week they eat anything they want.

Has anyone here ever practiced daily drinking a half teaspoon of baking soda dissolved in a cup of boiling water as means to keep themselves alkaline and reduce the bodyā€™s acidity? A lot of Europeans do so

(Edith) #236

It is all very individual and dependent upon where you were before your keto journey began. If one is a very metabolically unhealthy person, it might take him or her years to heal, years before they can handle starchy or higher glycemic carbs, if ever. If the person is metabolically healthy or an athlete doing keto for optimal health or performance, that person may not need to worry about carbs at all. She may even want a bit more carbs to target around work outs or sporting events.

You just have to figure out what is going to work for you. Anything can be keto if eaten in the correct quantity. But if it is something sugary or starchy, would you be able to put on the brakes in less than 20-30 grams of carbs? Some people find that even the smallest amount of a sugary carb, even fruit, will set them off into terrible cravings. Some people find that while some fruits are fine, if they have a potato, the appetite brakes come off. I have no problem eating fruit and vegetables in moderation, but put a tortilla chip in front of me and I will keep going until the bowl is empty. I am not capable of eating less than 20-30 grams of carbs where tortilla chips are concerned.

The question is always: why would you want to go back to what caused your health problems in the first place? I may stop keto some day and go towards a more paleo type diet, but I know I will not go back to how I ate pre-keto.

I will add one last thought: sometimes we donā€™t know how bad we fell until we feel better. Itā€™s possible that oatmeal or something else you used to eat contributed to your inflammation, but your inflammation was enough that you really didnā€™t notice any difference when you consumed the oatmeal. Once your inflammation decreases and then you eat something that doesnā€™t agree with you, you will notice because you now know what if feels like to feel good. I hope that makes sense. I am mildly rambling here.

I did a carnivore trial for a while. I am no longer carnivore, but I stick pretty close to it. I know pretty quickly if something I add back in causes trouble because my body and/or joints will hurt. I donā€™t think I would have found these intolerances without my trial. I guess my entire message is boiling down to: you will need to experiment with yourself and see how and when you can reintroduce foods, which ones, how much, and possibly scale back if necessary.

#237

I donā€™t know if itā€™s psycho somatic or what but for the past couple of days Iā€™m feeling much less pain moving my arm at my shoulder. Certain positions like the outward movement of my arm and when Iā€™m lying in bed on my back and raise my arm still hurt but Iā€™m feeling much less pain and Iā€™m only on keto starting my second week. I havenā€™t taken any NSAIDS or rub any lidocaine or other of my other go to salves for pain. Iā€™v had this pain for a solid year this month.

I havenā€™t eaten it yet but is full fat sour cream and whole milk Greek Yogurt keto?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #238

I hope so, because I eat them.

If you are staying under your carb limit, technically any food can be keto. Itā€™s more a question of whether you can eat little enough sugar (or whatever) to stay within the limit, and not go on a binge. Can you eat three grapes, or seven nuts, or whatever, and stop?

Myself, I avoid sugar (sucrose under its many names) entirely, because I am a sugar addict. I find it easy to stay under 20 g/day when eating lettuce, broccoli, and cauliflower, so I donā€™t worry about them. I am happy with less that one serving (as defined by the manufacturer) of Greek yoghurt, so I donā€™t worry about it, either. But I might have to worry, if I were intending to eat the whole container at once, lol! And I never buy the flavoured varieties of Greek yoghurt, only the unflavoured type, because the flavours all contain a ridiculous amount of added sugar. With sour cream, I look at the carb content and limit myself accordingly.

#239

So then inflammation is more from overeating than the type of foods we eat?

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #240

Acute inflammation is usually a response to trauma or infection. Chronic systemic inflammation can be caused by a number of things.

One source of systemic inflammation is over-consuming polyunsaturated fatty acids, particularly of the Ļ‰-6 type (which is why we strongly advise avoiding the industrial seed oils). Another source is chronically elevated serum insulin, such as is caused by a high carbohydrate intake. So itā€™s more a matter of the types of foods, not so much the number of calories involved. Eat so that your fats are mostly saturated or mono-unsaturated, and avoid carbohydrates, and you could most likely eat enough food to satisfy your hunger without having to worry about calories.

#241

I donā€™t even think I ever need much healing but my body very, very, very clearly told me it likes my carb intake LOW. As time passed, I went lower as I could, my body liked it and I eventually got benefits I didnā€™t get on my original, carbier keto. I have off days as they are worth it to me (and I have no real control anyway, at least not directly, itā€™s complicated. eating right makes things way easier so cravings donā€™t come).
I can suddenly eat even a lot of sugar without problems in most cases (I do feel itā€™s not as ideal but I donā€™t feel unpleasant unless I REALLY overdo it) but itā€™s not good and unneeded so I only do it rarely when I canā€™t resist or I know what am I doing.

A ketoer usually can and often does eat an ounce of rice (I prefer Jasmine, thank you very much. higher GI than table sugar :smiley: but who cares if I like the taste and my body doesnā€™t complain?) or some sweet potato on a keto dayā€¦ A small amount of anything fits keto if we just want to be in ketosis, usually. I choose not to add such items for reasons but if I fancy it once in a blue moon? So be it. But itā€™s individual.
So many things are. Some people need to stick to keto. Others do it because they donā€™t miss anything. Some people go off for social or performance reasons but they come back soon. And so on. I met people who had to leave keto as they couldnā€™t eat enough even when more and more underweight, something with their body signs were off, probably eating disorders can do that tooā€¦ Keto isnā€™t magic and isnā€™t for everyone.

It works for some. And totally NOT for others. I prefer to eat anything I want all the time so I go for that even if it involves a lot of experiments, making new recipes and training. But I always loved keto food (not all, sure, I have my taste and I got super choosy as time passed. I ate almost anything as a kid). It didnā€™t mean I could just skip all carby food forever, some people meets keto and stay there without problems, thatā€™s not meā€¦ But I didnā€™t crave various stuff on keto (I only missed vegs and fat, actually and I ate them just not as much as I wanted. but as much as I wanted was a wrong idea) and itā€™s even less so on carnivore.

I have no idea what that is but itā€™s my bodyā€™s job, I donā€™t need to think about such things. I eat good food and my body does what it should do. I am an European and never heard about that custom (it means nothing, I am pretty much a hermit and donā€™t talk with people in my country. I still here this and that but not this).

Very much. In the right amounts. But to me, almost everything is keto as I can eat them in small enough quantitiesā€¦ Keto (my definition, all about ketosis. not some bunch of rules that many ketoers donā€™t even try to follow as itā€™s not needed for ketosis and possibly bad for them) doesnā€™t ban items, it just limits your carb intake (and maybe some people should avoid certain items or they interfere with ketosisā€¦? of course they can mess up other things, just being in ketosis isnā€™t enough).
In my own case, yogurt is tricky as itā€™s easy to overeat carbs that way and it doesnā€™t help with fat either and I need to be careful with that. But in small amounts and if I donā€™t have a bunch of other carby items? Itā€™s good.

(B Creighton) #242

I get my goat yogurt at Trader Joeā€™s. It is $5.69/qt right now which will rival most any Greek yogurt, and as I have said is more ketogenic because it has twice the MCTs of the cow dairy Greek yogurt. I typically sweeten it with a tbsp of xylitol and a tbsp of erythritol/monk fruit sweetener. I typically add collagen to it, and when working out, I add creatine as well. I flavor it with berries, tart cherries, etc. I enjoy the frozen boreal blueberries at Trader Joeā€™s. When not doing keto, I may sneak in whipped mango, or the like. Then after that I typically have a whole red grapefruit which I follow with a sandwich that has banana and raisins(def not too keto). So, I actually eat quite a bit of fruit on a daily basis. Sometimes my dessert is cottage cheese topped with canned fruit salad(no syrup). Even when doing keto, I had the fruit in my yogurt and ususally the grapefruit.