Shoulder tendonitis and keto or carnivore diet


(B Creighton) #203

What I have been saying is that I believe by understanding what is happening in our natural cycles, we can use it to keep us healthy. What are your goals? Are you aiming to lose visceral fat, gain muscle, or just feel healthy? I believe we can do all or some of these by tweeking our food to take advantage of our natural body makeup. If you want to lose fat, you basically have to turn off the carbs, esp sugar, and you will lose it because insulin will fall and not block fat burning. That is the big ā€œsecretā€ of keto. I ate plenty of calories - about the same really - but lost lots of fat. So, I no longer believe the ā€œcalorie is a calorieā€ paradigm. Different calories are metabolized differently in the body. Basically, no one is going to lose much fat unless they unwittingly do some form of keto - that is they cut calories so much that they cut carbs enough to lose weight. Why not just cut the carbs, and enjoy what you eat without starving yourself to death?

I donā€™t believe it is a matter of what carbs I ate which led to my success too much - with the exception of sugar. Fructose is particularly good at putting on the visceral fat. I think I was successful because I started with keto. I did things like keeping the house in the 60s in the winter, and exercising in my skivvies. Cold exposure tends to encourage more brown fat creation - another clue that keto was a cold weather adaptation. So I believe starting with keto helped me create more brown fat, which helped me increase my metabolism and burn more fat. Brown fat is fat cells full of mitochondria rather than triglycerides.

I began to eat more MCTs at the end of my keto which also tend to cause more brown fat to build apparently. This is because I didnā€™t learn about this earlier in my keto. If I had, I would have started MCT sources besides coconut oil a lot sooner. A meta-analysis study of a few other RCTs seems to confirm my results of weight loss just through the use of MCTs. This study reviewed thirteen short term studies with MCTs versus Long Chain Triglycerides(regular saturated fats). The results showed an across the board weight loss and fat loss connected with the use of MCTs. The differences were small, for instance about a one pound additional weight loss were found in the trials, but nevertheless improvements in body measurements and total body fat loss were consistently present. (Karen Mumme, Welma Stonehouse. Effects of Medium-Chain Triglycerides on Weight Loss and Body Composition: A Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials. RESEARCH REVIEW, VOLUME 115, ISSUE 2, P. 249-263, FEB 1, 2015. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jand.2014.10.02) Further, a study from 2014 discovered that MCT oil increased hormones responsible for feelings of fullness in males who had obesity. This feeling of decreased appetite led to participants in the study eating less food. (St-Onge, MP., Mayrsohn, B., Oā€™Keeffe, M. et al. Impact of medium and long chain triglycerides consumption on appetite and food intake in overweight men. Eur J Clin Nutr 68, 1134ā€“1140 (2014). https://doi.org/10.1038/ejcn.2014.145)

I tried to incorporate a few other things which made my fat mitochondria uncouple more. The fiber in cruciferous vegetables are digested into butyrate by certain types of gut probiotics. That butryrate is in turn formed into ketone bodies by our colonocytes in the colon, which are ketogenic. I ate these throughout my keto - cabbage, esp red cabbage, broccoli, asparagus, kale salad, and to a much lesser extent green beans. I cooked them up in coconut oil, butter or olive oil. I generally ate my protein, and then a good helping of any of these without concern for counting carbs.

ALA omega 3s from plants also apparently serve to uncouple mitochondria in fat cells. So, at the end I began to incorporate those. Flax seed is a high source of ALA. I didnā€™t make these, but I told my wife about them - making flax seed wraps as a substitute for bread. If I do keto again this winter, I will probably try these. I may try to do keto again, but kinda in reverse - doing keto after I gain the muscle - but just low carb during my exercise phase. Iā€™ve always wanted to have a six packā€¦and never quite made it.

I am still eating a lot less root vegetables than I did pre-keto. I used to eat a stew with potatoes, carrots and onion much more frequently than I do nowā€¦ I have switched to more grass fed beef and lamb. I am also eating my lentil, sweet potato soup less. I am staying more with the cruciferous vegetables. Sauerkraut is another good one. It is fermented with some bacillus subtilis, and has some K2. My breakfast is now goat yogurt with some berries or sour cherries which I sweeten with xylitol and erythritol/monk fruit. Then I typically have a whole red grapefruit, and a peanut butter, banana, and raisin sandwich on organic bread. During keto I switched out the sandwich for a egg and cheese omelet with some red cabbage. If I want strong keto, I cut the grapefruit as well.


#204

I turned to keto to heal my shoulder pain so that I can go back in the gym. If and when that occurs Iā€™d like to know specifically just what carbs you incorporate in your diet. If you would tell me whats good. I too loved my lentil and split pea soups with potato and carrots and I dare say I made it very tastey It wouldnā€™t be wise to back to those foods. Thank you for your advice.


#205

To all ketovores & carnivores who wish to reply

Do you consume all fats on meats; lamb beef pork or do you cut it away and discard. Do you eat the chicken skin? Thank you


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #206

Absolutely! The fat has no effect on our insulin secretion, beyond the minimum required to sustain life. I may store it for a while during meals, but between meals insulin will be low, and I will be able to let that fat out to be metabolised. If I listen to my appetite hormones, Iā€™m not going to overeat, the way I did as a carb-burner. And if I do eat for emotional reasons, I may perspire more, but Iā€™m still not going to eat enough extra to cause much of it, if any, to get stored. I donā€™t worry about calories, and my weight has been stable since autumn of 2017.


(Robin) #207

I eat any fat that is chewable.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #208

As Dr. Phinney likes to say, ā€œWe are not what we eat, we are what our body stores from what we eat.ā€ Ketogenic diet = minimal storage.


(Robin) #209

Which also translates to minimal poopage. :wink:


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #210

Iā€™m not so sure about that. People often tell me Iā€™m full of you-know-what. :grin:


#211

Fantastic News! I think I died and went to heaven! Just waiting for the bubble to burst

On the poopage issue Iā€™m about the same as previously I do eat both salads and steamed veggies and it keeps me regular


#212

I donā€™t throw away food - though I have catsā€¦ But nope, if I find a cut too fatty, I either donā€™t buy it but rather I get my lard from it :smiley: As itā€™s usually pork.
I get almost the entirety of my fat intake from my protein sources but sometimes even I need some extra fat to fry my eggs in itā€¦ So I can handle leaner and fattier meat alike and I surely eat all the fat eventually (very soon). I am only bad with lean stuff - but I can eat it with something super fatty so even that is fine as long as itā€™s not dry.

I donā€™t often eat chicken but the skin is wonderful when crispy, one of my fav parts! Of course I eat it.

By the way, I found no fat I couldnā€™t eat. Some are chewier but thatā€™s variety. But as I wrote, I have cats so I can be a bit choosy when I want :wink:

I always LOVED fat and itā€™s a bit sad I can afford so little if I want to eat properlyā€¦ But if nothing else, carnivore OMAD makes the small amount satisfying! (Small for me.) And I adore my protein too.

It depends on the style of keto and the amount of food eaten, probably. I noticed little change on keto (compared to low-carb. me overeating on high-carb was another matter), carnivore is different. Nothing extreme thoughā€¦ But my whole food volume went down quite seriously and no fiberā€¦ So no wonder the output diminished as well.

Does someone here know why some people need fiberā€¦?


#213

They only say that because the canā€™t stop eating carbsā€¦lol


#214

On fiber
Growing up my two sisters always had problems going to the bathroom regular. Their diets were low in fiber whereas mine was always high on fiber with salads and steamed veggies and I had no problems in the poopage dept


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #215

For what itā€™s worth (because there is a lot of individual variation in this matter), Dr. Jason Fung likes to say, ā€œCarbohydrate is the poison, and fibre is the antidote. If youā€™re not taking the poison, why bother with the antidote?ā€

Seriously, however, there are a number of forum members who find fibre essential in their diet, even on keto. And an equal number, I believe, who cannot tolerate fibre at all. The majority of us donā€™t seem to need to worry about whether we are eating fibre or not. Myself, I find the fibre in the salads, broccoli, and cauliflower that I eat is irrelevant, so I donā€™t worry about it.


(Edith) #216

You bet! I am always disappointed there is not more.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #217

They should breed a chicken that is all skin, lol! :chicken:


(B Creighton) #218

I cut away any gristly fat - I do not enjoy gristle, but I probably need it. So, yes, I eat the chicken skin - it gives me some collagen, which I need. Also, usually it is the tastiest part with the herbs and spices. I tend to cut away most of the extra fat - but that depends now. For my grass fed lamb, I find the fat just has a different quality which I enjoy, so I eat it. In grass fed beef you are going to get an excellent source of Omega 3s and omega 6s in an excellent 1:1.5 ratio - unprocessed and less oxidated than in seed oils. You are also going to get 50% more stearic acid compared to palmitic acid, which will end up in a better HDL to LDL ratio than you will get with grain finished beef. The remainder is going to be mostly harmless monounsaturated fat.


#219

And for myself I like most salads and vegetables eliminating those starchy ones for now. Iā€™m continuing with the keto diet and seeing some excellent results in just a week but realistically itā€™s to early to know if itā€™s diet related.


#220

As a kid I ate lots of lamb chops and my mom would cook them on a broiler with an infra red element.Like a toaster oven only open on both sides. The drippings would fall thru the holes onto a pan underneath. I would sneak over with some rye bread and sop up that grease and devour as much as I could. She would catch me and say to stop that itā€™s not good for you. I guess she was wrong.


(B Creighton) #221

Assuming it was grass fed, she wasā€¦ LOLā€¦ Not that grain finished is the worst, but grass fed is just better with an excellent Omega 3 to omega 6 ratio. Grain fed is a little high in Omega 6s - it is usually more like a 1:7 ratio - but most estimates put the average total dietary content much worse than that. It is also deficient in vitamin K2 - as are most grain fed chickens - unless their diet is supplemented with vitamin K1. I now believe the mass produced meat and poultry industry in the US is just bad news. I wish I could find a better source for my chicken. Being ā€œorganicā€ doesnā€™t mean too much in terms of fat content. They are just being fed organic grain. That is still not grass - or bugs that eat grass.

Funny how things go. My dad was like that with saturated fat, and told us it was bad for us. Yet, we had dessert every nightā€¦ yeah, much worse for us. But, I still do it. I just limit my sugar intake til after I have eaten my protein, and to one time per day. Eating sugar after protein really cuts down its effect on your insulin. Not continuing this insult allows the insulin to fall the rest of the day, and perhaps get some fat burning done. It also gives you better energy levels. I donā€™t get so tired in the afternoon on low carb/keto - I think because I am better able to burn a little fat when the carbs/glycogen run out. High carb, carb, carb is just bad news for most people with the possible exception of performance atheletes. But, even there I am talking about short bursts. For any endurance sports, I believe keto/low carb is def the way to go.

Here is my food pyramid by weight(not calories) while not doing keto:
5% sugary treats, desserts
10% grains, seeds, nuts(limits lectins)
25% whole fruits and starchy vegetables (roots)
30% greens and cruciferous vegetables
30% other fats and proteins including dairy, beans and legumes; meats are more easily digested proteins than beans and legumes due to the latterā€™s lectins, raffinose, etc. - no vegetable oils because they are GMO and sprayed with glysophate and are overly oxidative because they are rich in Omega 6 PUFAs. On a limited basis for baking use grape seed oil. The only limit on saturated fat is to limit palmitic acid because it has the worst effects on LDL/HDL ratios. Use butter or coconut oil rather than palm oil. Monounsaturated fats are OK = olive oil & avocado oil.

Here is the basic food pyramid I followed to get into ketosis, lose fat and gain muscle:
by weight(not calories)
0-1% sugary treats
5% grains, seeds, nuts(limits lectins and carbs)
15-14% whole fruits limited to berries, tart cherries,
red grapefruit and avocados;
NO starchy vegetables (roots)
30% greens and cruciferous vegetables(maintain gut biome)
50% other fats and proteins including dairy, eggs, meats, seafood, and fowl;


#222

How often do you go on and off keto? Is it just too difficult to maintain or just peer pressure? When you do go off diet do you experience setbacks? If so what kind? Thank you

Your dad and my parents felt that saturated fats were bad because the news, drs and advertising continually hit us with that BS. Today the news is still bias in that and other ways not necessary to go into in this discussion.