Severe Health Dangers from Plants~

(Vic) #142

:sunglasses::grin::+1:

(Sama Hoole) #143

Humans can survive on plants, but thatā€™s not the same as thriving. At the end of the day, meat can be considered essential, the same canā€™t be said for plants. I personally donā€™t see any particular reason to have carbs, besides having some titrated around training to force weight gain.

And carnivore is hardly a cult, itā€™s more or less the evolutionary diet.

(Vic) #144

You get the thumbs up :+1:

We better stick to it.
For 10.000 years now human brains have been shrinking, an adaptation to less energy dense food.

We are evolving into idiots and itā€¦

(Linda ) #145

For me Iā€™ve been lchf only coming up a year

Before I went carnivore though I had started to notice the longer I was on keto/ ketovore more things started affecting meā€¦stomach pains eating asapargus, stomach pains eating spinach on its own ,stomach pains eating whipped cream from a can.
I was slowly taking more and more food away away.

I had a rash on my leg that the dermatologist said was a form of eczema that now has gone. My seborrheic dermatitis has cleared up.

What I found interesting though is to be in ketosis I have to eat a higher ratio of fat which cuts back my protein.
I had always believed that fat was our lever for keeping satiated but turns out for me if my fats not up then my inslin resistance stops my cells from taking it and then my body struggles to process the protein and I was not in ketosis. so I was shocked to find after losing 75lbs I still had insulin resistanceā€¦im now down 88lbs and seem to be back in ketosis again.
I canā€™t say that carnivore caused me to not tolerate veges that was the veges doing lol.

I believe everyone needs to do what works for them and for me that keeps changing.

#146

yes it was the veg LOL I so agree on that.

Your personal body showed you the way and the key thing here is you are one to SEE and FEEL and know thru your time on plan which way your path goes. I love that. A person who truly puts effort, time, personal results against the norm and finds ā€˜themselvesā€™ and what it takes for them. I needed this way also so I get you in doing ā€˜youā€™ as it needs for the best benefits!

and yes, everyone has to ā€˜do themā€™ for sure :slight_smile:

great post!

#147

Most definitely. Your vitamin D absorption is greatly increased with magnesium and K2.

In one study, the data revealed a slower progression of calcification in those taking both vitamin K2 and vitamin D compared to those taking vitamin D alone.

If you take calcium and vitamin D but are deficient in vitamin K2, you could be worse off than if you were not taking those supplements at all, as demonstrated by one meta-analysis that linked calcium supplements to heart attacks.

Magnesium is also a crucial part of the equation, as it is a component necessary for the activation of vitamin D. Without sufficient amounts of it, your body cannot properly utilize the vitamin D youā€™re taking.

According to a scientific review published in 2018, as many as 50% of Americans taking vitamin D supplements may not get significant benefit as the vitamin D simply gets stored in its inactive form, and the reason for this is because they have insufficient magnesium levels.

#148

https://www.facebook.com/notes/zeroing-in-on-health/supplements-why-taking-them-at-face-value-is-often-not-the-best-approach/334178751143157/?cft[0]=AZVS3-ISRsrMOpo928wOKxOvM4KrLzrNc8yFj0gmHRAJfrow7HuzGOVfr67clFNPcYJfOWjwjLbT2jlFDDozrTE0VJJw4JPI_kJrgN9aQopnkxeRlBhz_zSsuU39SLsQ7bQ&tn=*OH-R

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #149

I get eczema on the backs of my hands every winter when the humidity drops. Each year since I started keto, the rash has been less and less, till finally, this year, it was nothing more than an itch that I noticed for a couple of days in the middle of winter.

#150

I think this Facebook post aligns perfectly with what I posted.

So I tend to just encourage people to make sure they have looked into their supplements properly, and not just gone looking for confirmation of all the ā€˜positiveā€™ claims, but are willing to research how they can ā€˜go wrongā€™ in the body in various ways too, under some conditions and for some people at least.

(emphasis added)

From my understanding of the information I posted, it does little good to simply take vitamin D without taking magnesium and K2 as well. So, if one feels the need to supplement with vitamin d (which I do and am happy to continue doing), then itā€™s best to know the issues of supplementing with vitamin D alone.

And then, do what they resonate with most, once they are more informed about them.

As always, itā€™s a personal decision, that only the one taking the supplements can make.

#151

does one even hit a Drs office to know if they ā€˜requireā€™ truly any of what they guess they need? thru bloodwork tests ever? does that come into play for most of us?
just wondering

we are told by ā€˜expertsā€™ that say we need some starch in our lives. sweet taters good :slight_smile: but yet DOES ANYONE truly ever know IF ANY supps are ever really needed on a personal bloodwork testing to know?

nope. take this suppā€¦be great.
take this supp, it will alleviateā€¦
take this supp with this other supp and miracles happenā€¦

so?

again person view but if one wants truths do the Doc office for real truth testing before one shops the bottles and starts sucking down for those miracle changes thru a pill WE ALL would desire.

jsut a point of view from me on it with some ā€˜real Doc reportsā€™ we know and how it should be for use ya know.

real science. real path vs. what ifs??

#152

Iā€™m willing to bet few of us go to the doctor and get bloodwork done, to see if our vitamin D levels are high enough. I know I donā€™t. But I do know that vitamin D is an essential hormone that our bodies need. So essential in fact, that our bodies naturally produce it when our skin is exposed to sufficient sunlight.

The problem is, not everyone on this planet gets sufficient sunlight exposure. And depending on where you are on this blue orb, your needs for vitamin D supplementation will vary.

This, I believe, is the definition of a ā€œstraw manā€ argument. We are not talking about starches and sweet taters. Iā€™m not trying to sell you supplements to improve your sex drive or re-grow your hair (that last one should be blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen at my profile pic), again, Iā€™m talking about a hormone our bodies produce naturally when exposed to sufficient sunlight. There has been lots of research done on the need for vitamin D and what levels are sufficient for optimal health.

Just because some random person on Facebook (that I can only assume comes from one of your pro-carnivore groups, because I donā€™t have a Facebook account) says they donā€™t think taking vitamin D, zinc, and vitamin C will keep you safe from COVID with absolutely no references to back up that opinion, is not enough to convince me they are speaking from an informed position. But again, Facebook.

Again, poking the straw man. Iā€™m not talking about a miracle cure for all our ails. But I do believe thereā€™s a lot of evidence for the importance of vitamin D.

https://www.uclahealth.org/scientists-find-vitamin-d-is-crucial-in-human-immune-response

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-1596OC

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(14)70119-6/fulltext

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3449318/

https://www.livescience.com/61866-magnesium-vitamin-d.html

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/febs.15495

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3616008

Not claiming to be an expert, but I donā€™t feel like Iā€™m pissing in the wind either.

I assume, Fangs, based on how you passive aggressively post your Facebook link, that you donā€™t believe supplementing vitamins is necessary, and people only need to get their vitamin needs from animal products. I get it, you want everyone to just EAT MEAT and be their healthy primal self. But if someone thinks they need to take supplements, then letā€™s provide them with information and let them make their own choices. I would like all our health needs to be satisfied by food alone, but I donā€™t believe thatā€™s an option for everyone.

#153

Thatā€™s an impressive set of references!

Does anyone have suggestions for how to increase dietary magnesium while avoiding oxalates? Even if I wasnā€™t trying to avoid oxalates, I think itā€™s hard to stay under 20 grams carbs and also get 300-400 mg magnesium. Are supplements the only answer when following a ketogenic diet?

(Linda ) #154

My last blood work showed I was a little low on vitamin D but Dr Cywes told me he didnā€™t think it was necessary for me to take a vitamin he said he would rather I get it all naturally because every vitamin we take comes with consequences too.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #155

Context is all. Perhaps someone who is keto or carnivore is getting all they need from their diet and doesnā€™t need to supplement.

For example, the need for vitamin C is greatly lessened if we donā€™t eat carbohydrate, because Ī²-hydroxybutyrate reactivates the bodyā€™s endogenous defences against oxidation.

This is an interesting question. My belief is that a diet that requires supplementation is ipso facto inadequate. Given that the human race evolved eating meat and very little plant matter (as confirmed by isotopic analysis of bones), I donā€™t see how a carnivore diet could be deficient in micronutrients, unless it can be demonstrated (not guessed, or assumed) that there is some systemic problem with food production.

Hereā€™s another example: most people need to include salt in their diet, but many carnivores find that after a while their need for dietary salt goes away. They donā€™t salt the meat they eat, but somehow their bodies manage to have a healthy level of salt, because apparently their food gives them enough. There are hypothesis about why this should be so, but I havenā€™t seen any conclusive research. I eat carbohydrate at the keto level, and I find that I cannot do without adding salt; again, I donā€™t know why that should be.

But my point in all this is that, given that our need for vitamin C goes away when we drop our carb intake sufficiently, and our need for added salt goes away when we eliminate plants from our diet, what other needs are different for keto and carnivore people, as opposed to carb-burners? Perhaps we donā€™t need as much magnesium or potassium? Or perhaps an all-meat diet provides enough, whereas including plants in the diet has some deleterious effect? Who knows? But it would sure be interesting to find out!

And it sure feels to me as though the constant questioning about the ā€œlong-term safetyā€ of a ketogenic or carnivore diet is just the ā€œmeat bad, plant goodā€ vegan agenda at work, particularly since people have now been eating low-carb or plant-free for enough years for any deleterious effects to have arisen. Of course, anyone who doubts the safety of keto or carnivore is welcome to return to a diet of high-carb processed foods, sugars, refined grains, and industrial seed oils. See how healthy that diet is over even the short term, and report back.

#156

I think the discussion among people on this site is less black and white. For me, the questioning comes from a desire to find some balance that makes me feel better than Iā€™m currently feeling.

I was reading something by one of the founders of this site (Richard?) that rang true to me. He said the evidence for keto in controlling obesity and type II diabetes is clear, but everything else is still up for debate (or something like that). For those of us coming to this WOE with issues other than obesity or diabetes, it seems harder to find answers.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #157

@Wendy198


If you have specific issue(s) try googling ā€˜keto [issue(s)]ā€™ to see what comes up.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #158

@Wendy198

PS: you may find the following of interest. Iā€™m big on evolution. Our ancestors lived in ketosis most of their lives simply because there was no alternative. Plants of the Pleistocene and pre-Pleistocene were not what they are now - they were mostly cellulose. So our ancestors could have derived only an incidental amount of their nutrient requirements from plants/carbohydrates. Therefore, ketosis is the natural and healthy state of human metabolism.

#159

Thanks @amwassil You donā€™t have to convince me that a keto diet is healthy or that carnivore works well for some people. Itā€™s just that I personally havenā€™t found any solution to my chronic pain as of yet. I will keep trying!

#160

I eat carnivore and I supplement, but I have specific illnesses that need controlling and I find that one or two electrolytes (especially magnesium) help a lot - and I took those prior to going keto/carnivore.

One thing that I ruminate on a lot is the fact that many of us are not coming to keto or carnivore fresh - weā€™ve been eating in other ways for many years, often decades.

So I always wonder if thereā€™s a pre-existing electrolyte imbalance - and that had we eaten carnivore or keto from the outset, we wouldnā€™t need to supplement because theoretically the diet gives us all we need, but because weā€™re depleted of those vitamins and minerals due to our old ways of eating, we might need additional sources for a period of time.

I could be completely wrong, of course.

(UsedToBeT2D) #161

I believe itā€™s processed foods and refined seed oils that are most detrimental to our health. Keto diet is just a subset of diets that eliminate all of that garbage. And it is a very simple diet to follow. Keto has been miraculous for me.