Could you provide a reference for this? Everything I’ve seen has shown that our health and physical stature declined when we switched from Hunter/gatherer cultures to agrarian cultures.
Yeah, I don’t believe this is true. People “believe”’ things without fact or truth. That is what faith is.
Fortunately, science and knowledge do change as we learn more. It’s okay if it changes.
I think fruit complements a carnivorous diet quite well.
This fruit: avocado, pumpkin, zucchini, coconut, oysters and olives.
Science is observation, in my observation, and data interpretation. It is constantly evolving as the universe of things become more measurable with technology. It is not based on anything so solid as facts. Facts are assertions based on knowledge, bias, or both akin to beliefs.
oysters are a fruit?
and I get what you are saying about how fruit being ‘farmed’ now is so different but NO it does not and never will complement zero carb HAHA
Yes I am saying science is a fact, what I should be saying is science produces facts 
I guess I am wording it wrong on what I am trying to get across.
Here I go again, knowing what I wanna say but wording it wrong LOL
Science definition , a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws
A fact is something that has already been done or an action in process . It is an event that has definitely and actually taken place, and is distinguishable from a suspicion, innuendo, or supposition. A fact is a truth as opposed to fiction or mistake.
We know science has determined that toxins are existent in plant matter because it is a fact toxins are present thru scientific research and therefore we can ‘conclude?’ maybe that toxins can make the human body ill? Or has it been proven as a fact toxins do make the human bodies ill and therefore most toxins if one feels ill should be avoided?
HA HA yes I am having fun with this…I am not awake yet this morning LOL
While this is true, it is also true that archaeologists can tell, simply from looking at the skeletal remains, whether the culture at the dig consisted of hunters and gatherers or farmers. The cultures that adopted agriculture are noticeably less healthy.
Dr. Michael Eades has a fascinating lecture on this topic:
After reading the rest of the thread, I just want to comment that, while many people can safely eat plants, most of the well-known committed carnivores find themselves avoiding plant foods because of their effects. Amber O’Hearn and Georgia Ede, for example, have both stated that they did not adopt a carnivore diet by choice, but because certain health problems cease to trouble them only if they eat a strict carnivore diet.
It also seems like those food intolerances get magnified after spending some time on the carnivore diet. Much like people on keto getting terrible sugar crashes when they try a jammy dodger after three years of celibacy.
Maybe it’s good to bring in some low-toxicity carbs every now and then.
Personally, I don’t see the point. Apart from cravings, which are part of my sugar/carb addiction and not relevant to actual need, I am quite happy eating a minimal amount of carbohydrate. Suggesting that I should increase my carb intake from time to time is a lot like telling an alcholic to go ahead and have a whiskey occasionally.
Yes, someone who is not addicted to carbohydrate and sugar can certainly indulge occasionally without ill effect, but for those of us who are addicts, well . . . I’m still recovering from indulging somewhat in carbohydrates and sweets during the holiday season at the end of last year. Won’t be doing that again, God willing!
you are a voice of reason for sure Paul
for this it is ‘noticeable’ because zc is a major elimination lifestyle.
when one gives up alcohol and has 2-4 drinks, one gets buzzed pretty darn quick…when a zc person ingests veg and sugar treats and all that junk, our bodies shock out and it is very noticeable this stuff is truly acting as a poison to us and it isn’t magnified in a sense of, oh if I eat some of this all the time, I will be fine. It is not working that way at all.
I’ve seen decent results from adding in dextrose during heavy workouts, while remaining zero carbs everywhere else. That seems to be enough to keep glucose metabolism firing along, and I don’t feel any need to add in carbs at the end of the week. Working system so far.
I definitely feel 25ml whisky now 
25 ml. Not strongly, not for long but still, this is tiny even for me!
I always strongly felt 3 drinks (it was the point where I definitely stopped) but I always drank rarely so no wonder. But my tolerance pretty much lowered since I don’t even drink half a can of a beer in one sitting… And ketosis has a big effect too, people say, I never could test it, I drink so rarely and so little…
I don’t know if it’s the plants or carbs (probably some mix) but I definitely handle them less well if I just lower the amount for a while (what will a carni month do?). I never considered this losing my flexibility therefore a negative thing… I think I can get used to them again to some extent anyway if I want and I probably could live on high-carb if I really must (feeling worse but not to the point of giving up survival)… But there is almost no chance for that and if I can avoid most carbs most of the time and if needed, I can avoid them very well all the time and it’s better for me, I just don’t see the point to keep my body willing to eat carbs with adding them regularly. I don’t actually want to go back and motivation to stay is useful for me as I always feel my body prefers very little carbs. I am sure it preferred that all my life, I just had no idea as I always ate carbs and didn’t know how low-carb feels. And the difference was small to notice when my body only knew high-carb. As I showed it lower and lower carb, its willingness to handle carbs lowered. And I may add carbs, some all the time and much sometimes, its “tolerance” gets smaller and smaller, there is no way back and I am fine with that. Why I would want to go back if it’s not a must for survival and if it’s much worse to me? It makes no sense. I don’t even need to be polite and eat cake with relatives. They are perfectly fine without it and I am perfectly fine to do what I like and not sacrificing myself for some wrong politeness or whatever. We can be together without eating the same. I probably lack the usual level of social eating compulsion. I tend to prefer eating together with my SO but why would it matter if we eat the same, I can’t imagine. It’s nice to have the same sometimes but it’s not among the really important things. My hedonism is so much more important and my health is even higher priority (though being and feeling healthy is very hedonistic. being carb-poisoned is one of the least hedonistic things I can imagine). And social values don’t suffer if we eat differently even if I just drink a water at a meal. Actually, I can focus on the other people and the talk better if I don’t focus on my meal…
So that’s no good reason to keep our body to somehow willing to handle with carbs.
My love towards fruits could be a good reason but I don’t think so. If I lose my current level of tolerance for a better life, I can just enjoy my fruits with my eyes and mind. There is a positive change where I would think it a very good deal and well, my tolerance gets smaller anyway as I wrote. I enjoyed enough fruit to remember the joy my whole life. Or am I weird? I’ve read so many times eating something tasty is for a few seconds/minutes. Well no, it easily is for several months for me in some cases. Or longer. Or I just eat something more enjoyable. Even super tasty things are meh if our desire towards them turned into negative, it’s an odd feeling I never got before I tried carnivore.
So I think my body is naturally flexible and I doubt I will have a time where living on carbs is my only option for survival anyway but I probably could do it. I never add carbs just for the sake of adding carbs. Maybe I get tempted, it happens with most people and very often with me but I don’t consider it a surely positive let alone a needed thing. In many cases, it’s more like a mistake we should avoid and a smaller tolerance may help. But it’s not just a useful tool. If my body hates carbs especially sugar as it does, I don’t consider it not flexible but smart and experienced, it tells me what it wants to work better. It’s cool (especially that I hardly get to the point of pain or similarly big problems. I just feel it’s not okay and if I am as smart as my body - I am not but I try -, I listen to it). So I just got more sensitive to what is good for me
But each to their own.
Fruit of the sea, I think the Portuguese, or maybe the Italians, may call shellfish and molluscs that. Not sure about your shrimp and my prawns, though. Frutti di mare.
Apologies for the food image post. Imagine this fruit with a steak @Fangs. 
ok I will go with that…fruit of the sea LOL
I don’t know, I never use the word fruit anymore in my life. Other than when on forums and chatting this stuff, I don’t think I even ever say the word fruit 
I say steak alot 
Would you say, then, that this is a high-steaks diet? 
(Sometimes I just slay me!) 
ok ok 
yes I steak my claim to saying it is a high steaks menu for me.
I also live on a steak streak.
too funny!
bump up for new zc people wanting some info about plant toxins and why some of us drop them from our lives…just a great read
Circumstantial evidence supports the fact that, toxins or not, and whatever it was our ancestors ate, we’ve adapted very well to veggies. That’s how we’ve got to the billions we are now.
For each one of us who is a carnivore, how many of us aren’t? Take a look at countries with centenarians. Carnivores? How many of these centenarians are carnivores?
At some point we started to eat a super processed diet, with super processed fats, super processed ingredients and our health became worse. Supersize everything. And drive everywhere. Foods from around the globe that don’t grow where we live, unless we do… super processed agriculture.
How many people who have insulin related issues got them from eating spinach?
So, when it works for you to eat only meat (beware of the processed meat with all the chemicals!), that’s great. It doesn’t mean it is necessary, or even desirable for everybody.
Because for every example we can find here in the forums of a carnivore who’s doing well, there are a few million Asians, etc who are fine eating veggies and meats, not exclusively meats.
What kind of longterm experience do we have with sedentary people eating carnivore with today’s meats and sausages?
Our ancestors who ate exclusively, or almost exclusively, carnivore ate the meats of different animals and they hunted that meat. Everything was different.
Yesterday, I’ve got a lot of chicken (our ancestors ate farmed chicken?) from a shop (the farmer killed it for me and plucked all the feathers) which I drove to (sedentarism). Today I’ll bake it in the oven (gas, no collecting wood and fighting like mad to start and keep a fire with hands, stones and wood) with salt (that I didn’t have to follow animals to find a lick and get it and transport it myself, without an ultra light backpack while herding the children).
Voilà my carnivore lifestyle.
I still think it’s our whole lifestyle that makes us sick. Not just what we eat. And I definitely don’t blame insulin resistance on all the evil broccoli and spinach I ate. I think it was the things I knew I shouldn’t be eating, the processed stuff, the non local stuff. The ones tasting too good.
Plants are toxic.
Humans can deal with the toxins to a degree.
Humans can survive as herbivores.
Also as pure Carnivores.
And anything inbetween as omnivores.
The big question is wat should we do if we can choose, to thrive and live long and be healthy.
The herbivores by choice (vegans) seem to suffer catastrophic health failure within 4 years. Sadly because many ha e their hart in the right place.
The omnivores around 50% of calories from meat don’t seem to last a lifetime of good health either. 30, 40years and the misery begins with insulin resistance as a good indicater that health is failing.
What about Carnivores, they seem to do well? We can include the LCHF keto here, below 20gr of carbs a day doesn’t seem to harm the majority.
By choice I would say LCHF is the way to go. Pure carnivore is not required to stay healthy, but stay very close to it. Max 20gr of carbs from plants is good. We can handle the toxins that come with it.
My personal choice is Carnivore, a choice, just because I love it.
Keto sub 20gr is a must for me, not a choice, more plants make me sick. I never want the joint pain back again.
@Corals, yea I agree with alot of what you wrote in your post but I disagree with some too because it isn’t black and white for many ever with plant ingestion.
absolutely agree as our food got worse thru processing and chem crap and more…along with general lifestyle/environment, etc, the decline of the entire population and more trigger disease such as diabetes and general malady hit the population.
It is the oxalates in spinach. You can’t pick just insulin issues when chatting plant toxins at all. It is what that particular plant toxin does in your body.
It’s isothiocyanates and sulforaphane for broccoli.
Insulin resistance is not the end all be all of anyone.
Of course humans can deal just as Vic said. Plants are our backup survival food method when healthy meat is not available. Nature gave us 2 ways. The body requires ONLY protein and fat for survival. Basics of life. Not one carb is required ever. But of course carbs can be processed for survival and that is a very good thing or none of us would be here today LOL
Vic’s post, I second all he said on it.
Where a person is on age, other health issues, our stress environment and more come into play also but age to me is a biggie. Alot of plant toxins we do ingest take time to build. A plant has thorns and more for protection but they can’t run, they need internal toxin loads to stay alive, thru bitter taste, real poisonous factors and more as we know.
So in the end, carnivore is the purest food intake one can survive on without loading any plant toxins into their body and like Vic said, when going carnivore so many older (and now the younger have alot of joint pain also!!) find that just being off plant intake has taken them out of misery…but again, like Vic said, a more extreme low carb menu be it just LC or a ‘follow keto macro guidelines’ the probably the easiest and best form of eating out there for every human.
My choice is not carnivore just because I am a meat hound. Plants give me all kinds of issues that I left by the wayside as I dumped them and plus, in all honesty the taste sucks rocks. I always knew I could live without one veg in my life and when I researched I could thru what the body requires, yea, I dumped all veg like a hot potatoe
and also no one who doesn’t go all in carnivore will never know the health improvements they could have but if some try zero carb, and find they are in a better place on what little they can add back…like a few berries or fruit, or some veg they do like to ‘round out’ their eating experiences for long term to suit them…then cool. It is a good thing.
Like Vic I want to keep my such improved mental clarity, my anxiety levels down to almost nil now, no joint pain anymore to the level I had it, my improved thru the roof energy levels, my gut/bathroom issues are stellar! and a ton more benefits I received from carnivore just by dumping plants from my life.
Will all need this? Nope. But you can’t deny all plants carry a toxin level. It is real. It is science truth. It is fact. But how they react to all individuals over time is personal.
I agree with you a look at our entire lifestyles now is key.
But I also know that ‘we are what we eat’ holds alot of big truth and it is one that I sure agree with.
