Severe Health Dangers from Plants~

[PaulL]

Not really, and I don’t remember the sources I read presenting any, either, just that they expressed scepticism and advised caution. (I lost a lot of links a few months ago in a computer accident, so I can’t even point to towards what I read, sorry!) Hormesis does appear to have a place in the development of the human immune system, so it is clearly not a completely invalid notion. I’d just be leery of going overboard with the idea at this point in our understanding.

By contrast, I believe there is enough evidence in favour of a well-formulated ketogenic diet that we can endorse it without reservation. I just don’t believe that our understanding of hormesis is at that same point yet.

[VirginiaEdie]

Of course we are still brought back to N = 1, because while for some people the toxins in vegetables may help give a positive edge, other people have all kinds of nasty responses to the lectins, phytates, and oxalates. Some of the negative responses are well known and undisputed. The lectins in nightshades and beans come to mind.

I have a negative reaction to dairy. Dairy may be beneficial to me because of the calcium, but even a small amount causes me trouble. The dose does matter, a lot of dairy gives me a lot of trouble. I’m not willing to eat or drink it because the negatives outweigh the benefits. Could that be true of plant toxins? Just because we may not feel the negative affect in a small dose, does not mean it isn’t causing some kind of damage.

[Paendora]

Emotional vs. physical. Just will never be on the same level to me.

I’m not sure these are as separate as one might think. The body keeps the score (also the title of a great book on trauma). What we go through emotionally has major implications on the physical body and brain. And what’s happening physically absolutely affects us mentally and emotionally.

I’m fortunate in not showing adverse affects to eating plants, yet have gravitated towards a more carnivore based approach to my nutrition because I feel it more adequately satisfies what my body needs. Still enjoy a few green things and fruity things.

[SlowBurnMary]

Romanian keto researcher Christian Vlad’s book Stress & Adaptation In Physiology: Perturbation is a great resource for science behind not only hormesis and homeostasis, but also the benefits of antifragility/metabolic flex within a dietary induced context of LCHF/keto and other inductions such as fasting, cold hydrotherapy, and strength training. He approaches plant toxins as a good stress, etc.

Highly recommend for anyone interested in these fascinating matters. It makes a lot of sense to me to navigate beyond hormesis to antifragility which I aspire to do as a non-IR person - I need to read it a few more times before I can quote anything though.

As a high intensity strength trainer and martial arts/yoga person, I feel fab and have ongoing results with a high-alkaline 2/3 spiced veg 1/3 meat/cheese meal plate for enhancing midlife hormonal balance. The phytochemical antioxidants and/or RS or fibers are working great for me personally. In fact, the antioxidants and/or RS or fibers do a great job that counterbalances lectins for most folks, from what I understand.

[Dipper_Actual]

Thank you for this. I’ve been thinking about why my weight has been slowly creeping back up and this has come at just the right time I think.

Also been dealing with a dislocated then frozen shoulder and tortuous PT to rehab it so there’s that, too.

I think the wisdom in eschewing (NOT chewing, hah!) plant based foods is beginning to appeal to me as an intervention, and to help heal.

[atomicspacebunny]

Autopsy report:

What do most faithful zero carb carnivores and ketoers die of or will die of?

Either way If you eat animals your still eating PLANTS?

Eat just plants or meat your still in the same boat?

Footnotes:

[1]“Grass Fed” may not be such a good thing either: ”…Low-carbohydrate diets that focus on animal proteins have increased levels of saturated fats, and run the risk of higher levels of synthetic hormones and antibiotics used to fatten up commercial livestock.

The livestock bioaccumulates these toxins within their fat cells.

Does this mean that grassfed beef is the answer? Beef still bioaccumulate toxins in their fat cells –whatever toxins are in the air and in the ground. These toxins then accumulate in our bodies as a result. …” …More

[2] “…A second way in which animal antibiotic use can affect humans is through the consumption of antibiotic residues in meat, which then “provide a selection pressure in favor of [antibiotic-resistant] bugs in humans,” Evans explained. …The use of antibiotics in animals may affect the human gut bacteria. …” …More

[3] “…Over one hundred of antimicrobials, including β-lactams, aminoglycosides, tetracyclines, amphenicols, macrolides, sulfonamides, fluoroquinolones, lincosamides, polypeptides, and polyene, have been used in food-producing animals around the world. …” …More

[4] ”…Candida is opportunistic, meaning that it will grow out of balance if your health or constitution has been weakened, typically by using antibiotics. Because non-organic meat contains antibiotics, many of us are consuming them, unwittingly, on a daily or at least weekly basis. …” …More

image link

-----Lectins are one of the most insidious chemical weapons plants have in their arsenal to fight back against predators.

Looking at the chart below what does not have Lectins in it?

Answer: NOTHING (you would starve to death trying to avoid lectins because they are in your meat also and your body produces lectins all by itself.)

What are lectins?

“…Lectins are a defense mechanism which ALL life forms appear to have. Essentially, they are a low level toxin. The purpose of lectins is to discourage other animals from eating that life form. By triggering a negative reaction in the predator, that life form is then viewed as an undesirable food source. Hence, aiding its future survival1. …”

Seems like something we really ought to know more about, right?

“…Glyca-binding proteins (GBPs) are a category of proteins which bind specifically to certain sugar molecules. The “glyca” is the same prefix you see in the word glycation. That describes what happens after a protein or fat binds with a sugar molecule.

This binding process can cause inflammation and the creation of advanced glycation end products (AGEs), which are compounds associated with numerous age-related diseases. It’s why the apparent anti-glycation benefits of carnosine are so intriguing1. …” …More https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnosine

link to images

There are more lectins and oxalates in everything you eat then you would care to know about; meat or plants.

[VirginiaEdie]

Well, we all breath air which is full of pollution, so no matter how you look at it, our bodies are getting toxins; either by the food we eat, the air we breath and the water we drink. Probably the clothes we wear, too.

I looked through some of the articles you posted. The first did not fill me with confidence. The references in the first article were from cohort studies and the vegetarian pushing Harvard School of Public Health.

I understand lectins are in all the foods we eat, but not all lectins are created equal. Kidney and Castor beans come to mind.

The article about antibiotic use in animals had this to say at the end:

“Current evidence indicates that there is no direct impact of antibiotic residues in meat on human health, but the risk of generating antibiotic-resistant bacteria in animals poses a potential risk to humans. However, human antibiotic use is far more damaging in both respects."

[atomicspacebunny]

Kidney and Castor beans come to mind.

Actually those are very similar to Lima beans which is a carbohydrate blocker (super high in lectin). You can actually lose weight eating Lima beans with carbohydrates but it will wreck havoc on your heart rate (heart murmurs).

but not all lectins are created equal.

Lectins will kill crickets and other insects because they starve to death (carb blocker?) so they hybrid commercial vegetables to make sure they are high in lectins.

Organic vegetables are more prone to be eaten by insects (low lectins?).

[Regina]

Have eaten veggies for 60 years. In the peak of health. Just saying. …

[atomicspacebunny]

------ “Broccoli Bomb”
The crucifers like broccoli have this chemical called glucosinolate.
I like to think of this chemical as the main ingredient of the “bomb.”
They also have another chemical called myrosinase.
I think of this as the “matchstick” that lights the bomb.

They are referring to a chemical weapon[4] mustard gas used in chemo therapy, isothiocyanates; myrosinase, sulforaphane i.e. mustard seeds.

It’s only harmful to your thyroid if you are not eating enough iodine rich foods[3]. But works great for the targeting apoptosis in the proliferation of cancer cells.

[1] So, is there such a thing as too much broccoli?

[2] Does Sulforaphane get destroyed by heat?

[3] Sulforaphane & NRF2 - Dr. Rhonda Patrick

[3] 3 “Healthy” Habits That Could Be Hurting Your Thyroid Gland

[4] “…Mustard gas medicine. …By World War II, at least two dozen medical researchers transformed mustard agents into cancer chemotherapy. In the 1940s, sulfur mustard, commonly called mustard gas and nitrogen mustard, a derivative of mustard gas, became a new form of cancer treatment. …” …More

[atomicspacebunny]

----- Wheat Germ Agglutinin, does many horrible things but one is the brain…Although most lectins are rather large, WGA is smaller, and because of this can sneak through the gut more easily than other lectins. And because the vagus nerve connects the gut to the brain, WGA can hop on this highway and go straight to the brain. To make matters worse, WGA can cross the blood-brain barrier. And because it’s a “sticky” protein, it can connect with many other substances that have no business in the brain, and transport them right on in. Naturally, this can result in neurological problems.

Interesting paper from the year 1978:

IDENTIFICATION OF THE DIETARY LECTIN, WHEAT GERM AGGLUTININ, IN HUMAN INTESTINAL CONTENTS: ”…Persons consuming an ordinary diet are not likely to achieve a high dietary intake of plant lectins. Persons on high fiber diets containing large amounts of vegetable products or whole grains may achieve intakes of plant lectin comparable to those ingested in this study. The nutritional significance of dietary lectins remains unclear. It is well known that the nutritive value of many legumes is poor unless subjected to heat treatment which denatures most lectins. Dietary lectin has been implicated in the impaired growth rates seen in experimental animals fed unheated plant protein. However, uncertainty remains as to the general validity of this observation in view of the finding that selective removal of the lectin from soybeans does not improve the rate of growth or the protein efficiency ratio of animals ingesting raw soy protein.14 There is no conclu-
sive evidence that dietary wheat germ agglutinin is toxic; however, the lectin component of ricin (castorbean lectin) is known to be toxic in man.15. The interaction of dietary lectins with small or large intestinal epithelia has received scant attention in spite of the well known effects of these agents in vitro at even low concentrations. Concanavalin A agglutinates isolated epithelial cells from the human fetal intestine but not from the adult. Wheat germ agglutinin causes moderate agglutination of both fetal and adult human small intestinal cells.17 Both concanavalin A and wheat germ agglutinin bind to carcinoembryonic antigen.18 Certain lectins may impair vitamin B, transport in the guinea pig intestine. It is entirely possible that dietary lectins might alter intestinal epithelial cell function or inhibit binding of other substances to intestinal epithelial cells. Moreover, lectins might also alter bacterial growth by providing environmental substrates favoring the proliferation of certain bacteria in a manner similar to the observed adaptation of a specific bacteria population to the presence of human blood group B glycoprotein. …” …More

Thought this was interesting also:

Neuronal Transcytosis of WGA Conjugated Protein: ABSTRACT: Neuronal transcytosis was observed at the stage when no neurotransmitter was released after the injection of wheat germ agglutinin-conjugated horseradish peroxidase (WGA-HRP; WGA = 22 kDa, HRP = 40 kDa) into the vagus nerve. The co-injection of Rab3A-siRNA with WGA-HRP into the vagus nerve was performed to further examine this phenomenon. This co-injection resulted in the transcytosis of WGA-HRP, both of the passing type, by which it crossed the synapses, and of the secretion type followed by endocytosis of postsynaptic membranes. These findings raised the possibility in vivo that WGA plays an important role in the transcytosis of protein. Therefore, WGA may be a valuable tool for therapeutic drug targeting via transcytosis. The ability of WGA-conjugated Amyloid β (WGA-Aβ) to decrease amyloid deposits in Alzheimer’s disease was investigated. The conjugation of WGA to amyloid-β (1-40) (Aβ; 5 kDa) was confirmed. WGA-Aβ was then shown to move to terminals by axonal flow in vivo as well as WGA-HRP. WGA-Aβ was also observed in the nodose ganglion cells and terminals after injections of fluorescent Aβ (FAβ) into the vagus nerve and fluorescent WGA (FWGA) into the common carotid artery. These studies suggested that WGA-Aβ could be localized to solitary neurons via transcytosis. …” …More

[Fangs]

I have a negative reaction to dairy. Dairy may be beneficial to me because of the calcium, but even a small amount causes me trouble. The dose does matter, a lot of dairy gives me a lot of trouble. I’m not willing to eat or drink it because the negatives outweigh the benefits. Could that be true of plant toxins? Just because we may not feel the negative affect in a small dose, does not mean it isn’t causing some kind of damage

very true in that with dairy, even a small amt. you react. So many of us have ‘small reactions’ from plant and dairy and most are that smaller reaction so we wave it on by. How much damage is it doing? The jury is out on it. I don’t think real harm happens on it fast, it is that long term build up and break down of our internal systems that comes into play.

[Fangs]

What we go through emotionally has major implications on the physical body and brain. And what’s happening physically absolutely affects us mentally and emotionally.

I agree definintely to a certain level tho the physical side takes the beating ya know LOL Like if we run forever our legs know it physically.
I do think brain and body are connected, but the brain isn’t running truly and the legs are so I think that some point we have to break the bond and just focus on one sometimes.

I know for me I can ‘enjoy some green and fruit’ if I want trouble LOL
not so much on the green. I can do up some asparagus etc. and be ok. My guts don’t go too wonky on it. But fruit. Woof. Sugar hit sends me reeling. Can’t go there.

but nice thing is for me the taste of that asparagus and more veg I could eat just doesn’t taste good to me anymore. Longer I did carnivore and then went back and tried a few things like asparagus the more it tasted like old nasty grass with dirt LOL yea I know

Truly tho if someone wants some veg in their lives I get it. I think when one drops the processed junk from life…walk into more keto etc…and drops to meat and veg mostly…it is a great combination for so many. Much improved health. But if one has a bit more trouble the veg is where to look in their menu ya know…like don’t cut protein and fat, cut out the darn broccoli

I think all the plants and seeds etc. give low levels of toxins. But I also know a person can live on them easily if they are not effected directly in bad form. I guess it boils down to know yourself and how you react and do the best that suits you.

[Fangs]

Autopsy report:

What do most faithful zero carb carnivores and ketoers die of or will die of?

Either way If you eat animals your still eating PLANTS?

AND THIS IS THE WAY YOU COME INTO THE THREAD?

how do carnivores and ketoers die?

Can’t deal with you. I won’t read one link. I won’t read your posts. I won’t ever respond to your posts.

Others can have at ya LOL I ain’t bothering ever. Got way too old real fast with your game. ugh.

bye bye

[Fangs]

Yes, plants have phytochemicals and ‘toxins,’ but given the nature of hormetic stress and development in the human body, isn’t that the point?

Brian I am still doing some research for more in depth answer to you

but my old saying of any toxins in the body can’t be good stands, but I see the ‘chemical’ side of what you are saying and checking out more info on it all. very interesting to me actually, want to find out a bit more on it.

[atomicspacebunny]

So what it boils down to (no pun intended) when we cook our food it destroys lectins that’s all I was trying to point out my Dear Fang!

When we eat raw things (plants and meat) they tend to block complex carbohydrates but not refined carbohydrates… how interesting?

[Fangs]

that’s all I was trying to point out my Dear Fang!

You point out all ya want, when ya want open thread.

Over and out.

[atomicspacebunny]

Who needs read anything we will just listen to you?

Common sense is not needed?

[Fangs]

Who needs read anything we will just listen to you?

been conversing with a lot of wonderful people. you just won’t be one of them.

you can converse with whomever will chat up with ya. I am just saying I won’t. hey it is cool, you chat up all ya want. you go for it.

tell us carnivores and keto followers all about our deaths.

You know we love to hear it but this is my last post cause we can’t go there ya know…it will ruin the thread, ruin any good from it cause there are some very great thoughts on the board from very smart people and experiences. I don’t want that shot to heck and back.

whatever SpaceB, I just personally can’t stand it anymore.

[atomicspacebunny]

You forget this is a public forum so you must accept whatever comes your way, science is always open to debate and scrutiny and always will be.

You could make your own private forum and just eliminate anyone who does not agree with you although that is something I would not call reliable info but that’s up to you?

Good luck with that attitude because your losing your own common sensibility in the process?