Severe Health Dangers from Plants~

[Polly1]

Homo sapiens is the only animal on the planet clever enough to modify the very structures of its food sources and then stupid enough to consume the modified foods.

[Fangs]

then stupid enough to consume the modified foods

boy did you say it right~

our new food supplies are scary as hell. even further into the future I can’t fathom what nutrition will become. my brain can’t wrap around it all truly.

[KetoMomof2teens]

Yes, your thoughts are always so great on this stuff! Thank you

[Fangs]

Thanks

just passing on info told to me by others that have experienced this lifestyle way over 10 plus years eating carnivore.

and some personal experiences thrown in LOL

I think if we do chat back and forth and just throw out info and more we can then wrap our heads around big changes like into carnivore and our reactions etc. Just common chat about what ifs, and I had this trouble, or what if I do? etc. means so much to all of us. We learn a ton thru this type of chat. All good

[PrimalBrian]

I completely get the carnivore approach and have dabbled in it for periods at a time.

However, I am reluctant to adopt it as a full-time-and-forever-lifestyle until I can get a good answer to the following question:

Yes, plants have phytochemicals and ‘toxins,’ but given the nature of hormetic stress and development in the human body, isn’t that the point?

See, e.g., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2635914/

Compelling evidence from epidemiological studies suggest beneficial roles of dietary phytochemicals in protecting against chronic disorders such as cancer, and inflammatory and cardiovascular diseases. Emerging findings suggest that several dietary phytochemicals also benefit the nervous system and, when consumed regularly, may reduce the risk of disorders such as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases. The evidence supporting health benefits of vegetables and fruits provide a rationale for identification of the specific phytochemicals responsible, and for investigation of their molecular and cellular mechanisms of action. One general mechanism of action of phytochemicals that is emerging from recent studies is that they activate adaptive cellular stress response pathways. From an evolutionary perspective, the noxious properties of such phytochemicals play an important role in dissuading insects and other pests from eating the plants. However at the relatively small doses ingested by humans that consume the plants, the phytochemicals are not toxic and instead induce mild cellular stress responses. This phenomenon has been widely observed in biology and medicine, and has been described as ‘preconditioning’ or ‘hormesis’. Hormetic pathways activated by phytochemicals may involve kinases and transcription factors that induce the expression of genes that encode antioxidant enzymes, protein chaperones, phase-2 enzymes, neurotrophic factors and other cytoprotective proteins.

In my mind, it’s sort of like: “When I go to the gym and lift weights, I sweat and my muscles hurt.”

Again, I’m more heavily in the carnivore camp than my post implies, but I’m intellectually struggling with going full carnivore, and forever.

I also worry that the people who have had tremendous success on strict carnivore are the very small portion of the population (Mikhaila Peterson?) who simply cannot process or handle plants like 99.99% of the rest of us. So, I’m concerned that the awesome carnivore results are being seen by the small (and loud) population for whom it’s doing wonders.

But, does that mean for the rest of us, it’s “optimal?” I’m just not yet sure…

[PrimalBrian]

P.S. I note that in the PDF posted, page 36 very briefly discusses my question, but does not answer it with science, just conjecture.

For some reason, research paints this in a positive light. Sulforaphane is a hero. Isothiocyanates increase our natural antioxidants. They say it’s a hormetic response. [r] If it doesn’t kill you, it makes you stronger.I see it through another lensthough.When the body encounters something that is damaging, it wants to get rid of it. To do this it will upregulate an army to fightit. Some of these troops are antioxidants like our friend glutathione. While this is good in the context of fighting a cancerous cell or ridding the body of sulforaphane, I don’t think sending the troops to battle on a constant basis should be seen as a good thing.The fact that the body puts such a vast importance on getting rid of sulforaphane as quickly as possiblesuggest to me that it’s more of a danger than a cancer-killing sidekick.

[PrimalBrian]

P.P.S. I am also assuming, in my post above, that one consumes organic, non-GMO, flash-frozen, local and in-season vegetables. I agree with all posts above about conventional and modern vegetables.

[Fangs]

In my mind, it’s sort of like: “When I go to the gym and lift weights, I sweat and my muscles hurt.”

That was a good honest post Brian. Liked it.

but muscles being pushed thru exercise or use of any kind as nature intended to run and avoid danger or run to hunt prey etc and to be used as needed is never the same as eating a toxin to me. They just do not go hand in hand in my mind at all. The muscle is doing its’ thing as intended but toxins are invaders and while they ‘activate’ process, is that process a true good thing? Ahhh there in the question lies…lol

For me anything that makes your body go ‘into an active stage’ of detox, correction, a ‘mild cellular stress response’ as mentioned above is on that fence of good or bad. For me personally I see it as bad in that your body thru natural life will not want anything it has to correct. OH YES it can correct cause it can be punished beyond unbelievable things and survive but is that the right action to take.

An engine works well with oil. Take that oil away and put in maple syrup, it might run for a few more turns but in the end it craps out. So it functions for a bit, but eventually the maple syrup was a toxin it could run on, but not a full length and an instant action came from it, the engine shuts down.

So from what I read…and correct if wrong on assuming here :), that if we mildly add toxins to our bodies they should work better?
I just can’t get behind that because a poison, even if considered non-toxic is still toxic. A poison is a toxin that kills you fast. A toxin ingested over long term slower and less dramatic in effects, like arsenic build up and get ya in the end thru accumulation of that toxin.

So what am I missing? in that anything that is considered non-toxic in low level form, but is a toxin…how much of that does it take to truly start to kill the cells vs. to make them express genes that turn that issue around?

and if we do this on a ‘tit for tat’ level are we talking truly the increased toxin load of GMO veg now? What is the true load of what toxins ‘that are non toxic in low form but still a toxin’ even equal ever to the plant materials we are ingesting.

ok…I gave some thoughts

now we need to discuss and pull apart things and make more conclusions etc that suit us personally. You can see by my thoughts I can’t get behind benefits of ‘toxic but seeming non-toxic levels of toxins’ would be a good thing.

discussion is great on this!!

[Fangs]

P.P.S. I am also assuming, in my post above, that one consumes organic, non-GMO, flash-frozen, local and in-season vegetables. I agree with all posts above about conventional and modern vegetables

HA HA HA

oh no you don’t LOL

I just responded not assuming any of this LOL

but I will let it stand cause I gotta say the non-gmo lifestyle of plant eaters kinda is non existent. so many are city and no garden. they ‘rely on organic’ from others and even that can’t be proved literally organic sometimes or even if their ‘heirloom’ type seeds are still not modified from the past as with an ancient seed would never be…so…….

you had me laughing big, you threw me a curve

[Elizedge]

Not sure in this day and age that we need any more stressors.

[VirginiaEdie]

I think the least stressful philosophy about environmental toxins and product toxicity is the same for dealing with people: choose your battle.
At least, that is what works for me.

I think if we worried about every little thing, we would go crazy or have to live off the grid. I don’t want to live off the grid. Call me crazy, I know.

I try to buy all natural products. What’s ironic is that I tried buying all natural makeup and my skin and eyes found it very irritating. I went back to Mabeline and Cover Girl. I tried all natural shampoo and conditioner, and my hair turned into straw. I do use coconut oil for moisturizing my skin.

I don’t buy organic clothing or anything like that. I guess it boils down to: I mostly worry about what I put IN my body. Although, I will confess that I still drink caffeine free Diet Coke. I haven’t been able to kick that habit, and I know it’s because I don’t really want to. I don’t smoke, I don’t drink. I just want that one vice.

[Fangs]

choose your battle.

Great post. Loved it!

I think if we worried about every little thing, we would go crazy or have to live off the grid. I don’t want to live off the grid.

I am firmly agreed on that part about choosing our personal battles. What effects me most on a daily basis and how my body feels takes priority vs. the longer term battles I guess is how I think of it all.

Living off grid. Heck the stress and more of that lifestyle if ‘one does it to the max’ of what that term implies…omg there are shows on how hard one can live horrible. From temps dictating our suvive on food and freezing to death or so hot we faint …to predators eating our food supply…to ‘convenience’ we left behind and we sure do miss, to not working and no income, and then you got the ‘issues’ we face like med troubles and more being thrown into the mix. Yea the young’ins do well off grid…be the older guy or gal and life ain’t that cherry LOL

I enjoyed your post!

[PrimalBrian]

For me personally I see it as bad in that your body thru natural life will not want anything it has to correct.

Hm. I’m just not sure of this. Some of the most rewarding periods of my life have been difficult. Being by my father’s side when he was dying. Traveling across the world to volunteer for three weeks in Siberia (in the winter). Standing by and supporting family members whose life choices put them in harm’s way. The list goes on. I’m not sure I agree that our bodies’ and spirits’ daily goals are to stay in a safe zone and not be stressed, pushed, or have to be corrected.

So, with that mindset, I don’t think our bodies are meant to be un-stressed and uncomfortable all the time. Our ego may want that, but I’m not sure it’s how we developed as humans to thrive.

Still lots more to digest from your post, but that’s all I have time for for now…

[PrimalBrian]

So from what I read…and correct if wrong on assuming here :), that if we mildly add toxins to our bodies they should work better?

Yes, that’s exactly what the study I posted above says. That’s the hormetic response at work. My view of it is that it’s like training. A gymnast often hates the gym, hates the training, hates the food discipline, hates the routines, hates the practices, and hates the early mornings. But, those “stressors,” are what turn him or her into a gold medalist, no? I think the science I posted is saying the same thing. For some reason unexplainable by us, our bodies use those micro-stressors (hormesis) to get good at detoxifying our bodies so when it comes time to fight real battles (advanced glycated end products, rogue cancer cells, viruses, etc.), the body is in fighting shape. Well, that’s how I view the science, at least.

[PaulL]

I’m not disputing the article just wondering in the big list of the dangers of the world around us where vegetable toxins fall for people doing a carnivore diet?

As I have occasionally mentioned, Amber O’Hearn and Georgia Ede are both on record as being carnivore because of their bad reactions to plant-based foods. I would suspect that many others in the ZC/carnivore world eat that way for the same reason, and that the priority they give to the risk of eating plants would be in proportion to the severity of the effects they experience.

Furthermore, there is not always much we can to about environmental influences in general, but we do have a large amount of control over our diet. So changing one’s diet might be a kind of “low-hanging fruit,” as it were. (Pun intended)

[PrimalBrian]

in that anything that is considered non-toxic in low level form, but is a toxin…

“The dose makes the poison.” Paraclesus

The dose makes the poison

[PaulL]

Bear in mind, Brian, that hormesis is a disputed notion, with valid arguments on both sides of the issue. Until it is fully settled, I’d be wary of taking the idea as Gospel.

With food issues, it seems that people often decide what ought to be best and then look for ways of justifying their ideas. Veganism, with its roots in religion, and the diet-heart hypothesis, with its roots in faulty data-analysis, are both examples of this phenomenon.

[Fangs]

I’m just not sure of this. Some of the most rewarding periods of my life have been difficult. Being by my father’s side when he was dying. Traveling across the world to volunteer for three weeks in Siberia (in the winter). Standing by and supporting family members whose life choices put them in harm’s way. The list goes on. I’m not sure I agree that our bodies’ and spirits’ daily goals are to stay in a safe zone and not be stressed, pushed, or have to be corrected.

So, with that mindset, I don’t think our bodies are meant to be un-stressed and uncomfortable all the time. Our ego may want that, but I’m not sure it’s how we developed as humans to thrive.

Still lots more to digest from your post, but that’s all I have time for for now…

yea I get you cause I see from what you write you are thinking about it all like me and I can say one thing, no one is usually without stress ever in life. Just it is different for all.

Emotional vs. physical. Just will never be on the same level to me.
Physical is science vs. emotional is character, truth, wisdom, kindness and understand and more to a spiritual plane. So those never go hand in hand to me.

Your ‘natural spiritual attachment’ to a ‘stressed physical body’ is normal. I mean we have to hunt back then. There were no grocery stores. We survived pure and simple as nature intended and we died by those rules. No hunt in dead of winter, many perished thru starvation and more.

Now think way ahead…medical doctors and true meds like penicillin and more. We broke past what killed us so easily. Bad tooth, die from infection, you were not saved thru simple troubles. No one was, not animal or human.

Stress was a true part of natural life in the old days. That has changed. In that the stress factors changed. No money to pay rent cause jobs are bad? Stress to the max. Bodies feeling horrible thru just an insanity of fake/chem/gmo/processed food that is out there…sure. And so much more.

Stress is happening big time to almost every person. Do we need extra toxins to make that effect now? I know I don’t want that! Why do a physical stress in a toxin related ramped up plant food life situation when I can minimalize all that true physical cellular stress? Is it all out of whack…yea I think so.

Like bob said before…modern life.

Our old stress was hunt/eat/live or die. Big stress there for sure on humans. We had major stress.

Now that is taken away. Stress is now not real of life and death thru almost never interaction with other humans of current thought where there was no in place help. Nature was your constant. …in that we have those survival tactics thru kindess and compassion, people will help and can and act…those who do for others and govt. assistance programs to help you survive, we have grown so much…but while that has all changed out bodies are still stressed in the same way. Stress has been there and will be there, why would anyone want ‘toxins of low levels’ in their body. I just don’t see it as a want to have thing………

but,…the big but here LOL if one want a carnivore thinking one can go with science on plant toxins and embrace.

if one doesn’t want to go there, opt for keto plans etc. it is ALL a walk to de-stressing the body. A smart way to go which is why so many get better. It falls personally on do you want broccoli or whatever in your life and do better thru it all or are you one that feels the best path is more elimination food.

How ya roll and can handle your menu is very personal.

I walked a lot of years between lc, extreme lc, into carnivore and out. But I did fine what suits me less and what is my best path.

So the big journey we will all face is how low do ya go and what will truly fit your lifestyle and if cool with it, then have at it

but some science and belief and personal experience will sway me in a tight/science direction than another.

[Fangs]

with its roots in faulty data-analysis, are both examples of this phenomenon.

agreed. follow your personal science.

if that science holds more than other science to you then you can ‘be more assertive’ about why you find that true and you do what you do and you can become a bit more knowledged and if needed, defensive to protect your thoughts.

We all wish we knew the human body. Nope, best we can do is thru experience trial and error and roll with it.

[PrimalBrian]

Bear in mind, Brian, that hormesis is a disputed notion, with valid arguments on both sides of the issue. Until it is fully settled, I’d be wary of taking the idea as Gospel.

Agreed, Paul. I’m always looking to learn more. Do you have anything to support the notion that dietary/phytochemical induced hormesis might not be good (or might be harmful)? Sort of the flip side of the literature I posted above. Candidly, I’m not aware of any, but am obviously always looking to learn.