Saying hello to Ketos

#102

I can relate. On my original keto I had to track to keep my carbs in check… I actually could do that, the protein just doesn’t care about tracking. But as I try different approaches, tracking shows if they are working so I find it helpful (and still not a nice way to live, so troublesome, I take breaks from it).

Of course we humans have different experiences and even our belief in the right amounts are different. Protein is easier though as 1-2g/kg for LBM is a very common advice. If my body asked me, I would go for 1.5-2 but I am significantly higher (still not too crazy). Still good as I feel okay with it (and not without) :wink:
Even in the case of protein, there is an individual factor. And that is what matters, what your individual body needs. On keto, you basically just have fat and protein to play with and not everyone can handle an overly fatty woe. Too little protein in a sea of fat, nope, isn’t tempting at all. I would make it happen if I needed, like, 4000 kcal a day but as I am, I rather enjoy my moderately fatty food.
And this is important. We should enjoy our food instead of forcing ourselves into some rigid one-size-for-all mold that it’s not even necessarily… Possibly not even remotely good for us.

(Eve) #103

Since there seem to be a number of people on the forum who have done better with a lower protein, perhaps l should try to drop it a wee bit. I was basing it on my total body weight,.not lean mass, so thats why I am a bit high. At the moment I don’t really know what is optimal for me - early days and things haven’t properly stabilised, although much better than they were. So l think l will just concentrate on keeping carbs very low, slightly less protein and then lots of fat! The last is the hardest, as you say @Shinita . I am so used to filling up on lots of veg !

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #104

It’s very individual. If you feel you don’t need as much protein as you’ve been getting, then you probably don’t. There are researchers, notably Raubenheimer and Simpson, who believe that all mammals, including us, have an instinct for getting the amount of protein we need.

If you look at the studies on which the RDA for protein is based, people’s daily nitrogen loss is quite variable. The average is an amount of protein, 0.6 g/kg of lean mass/day, that is the equivalent amount of nitrogen (the body can use nitrogen only if it comes as part of an amino acid molecule, which is why we require a daily minimum of protein). The RDA was set at 0.8 g/kg, but that’s still not enough for some people, and too much for others.

(Eve) #105

Interesting stuff! So how does the body cope with all the protein if you are on the carnivore diet as l assume the amount consumed will be higher than on the keto diet. And so why is it not an issue ?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #106

I’m not sure anyone knows, entirely. The first thing is that, as I mentioned, people’s protein need is highly individual. So some carnivores are eating proportionally less fat and more protein, while others are eating more fat and less protein. Amber O’Hearn is of the opinion that if one’s serum glucose starts rising after a time on carnivore, that may indicate a greater need for fat (as both a primary fuel for the skeletal muscles and the substrate for ketone bodies) to fuel the body’s energy needs.

Under normal circumstances, the body will not metabolise amino acids, because they carry a heavy energy cost, so the yield is a lot less, but in cases of eating too much protein and not enough fat, it is likely that some of those amino acids get used to make glucose to pick up the slack from inadequate fat/ketones.

The reason for the high energy cost of metabolising amino acids is that first, they must be deaminated and the ammonia dealt with, then the remaining part of the molecule needs to be converted to either glucose or a fatty acid, and only then can the glucose or fat be metabolised as usual. There are three types of amino acids: some are lipogenic (fat-forming), some are glucogenic (glucose-forming), and a few are both. And all this is, of course, in aid of producing ATP to power all sorts of chemical reactions in the body.

#107

I suppose there is some reason for people saying that but I don’t see it… Why would we eat more protein on carnivore? Maybe what I have sometimes, without the “ballast” soaking up the fat, it’s harder to eat very fatty on carnivore? But it’s me, others do it just fine, even 2:1 or 3:1 fat:protein in grams is done by people… Or all the carbs on keto “helps” to lower our meat consumption, maybe? But it’s not THAT much carbs… I don’t know and it isn’t so important, it’s highly individual anyway. I have high protein on any woe as my body wants it and I can’t say no.

It is an issue for some people, I met multiple such carnivores. And some people eat 2-300g protein on normal keto without problems. It’s just me hearing about people’s stories so just some people though… But I don’t see why it would be suddenly okay on carnivore and not on keto for someone.
In the end we should figure out what works in our very individual case…

(Eve) #108

Thankuou very much again :blush:

(Eve) #109

On average how long does it take for ketones to rise again after a dip? I am still below 20g carbs, but went a bit higher and noticed lower ketones the next 2 days .
I don’t think l am fully fat adapted so would assume it takes a bit longer?

(Eve) #110

Does anyone know whether the keto adaptation symptoms can come and go? I have dropped.my carbs even lower than when l first started producing ketones and it seems l am getting some of the initial symptoms again. I am drinking electrolytes every day which l would hope would help, but l am not sure what is happening…?

(Eve) #112

@MattWisti Thankyou for your encouraging words. I have to admit, the switch to ketones has been a very hard one for my body, and is taking a long time. And, as you commented, all l can think is that it reflects the degree of damage existing in my gut/biome. So l will carry on with faith that it will all get better. Incidentally, my diet pre keto was extremely clean, no processed foodadditives ives or junk at all, but l did eat lots of carbs which l now realise my body was just not coping with, and evidenced by some recent blood tests - I just never realised that the carbs (albeit healthy ones) were the culprit. I have been on loads of different diets - fodmap, sibo, scd, etc, under the guidance of a practitioner, but none really helped that much - they all had significant carbs…! But at least l now have answers, even though the road has been very rocky! And still is.

(Eve) #113

Do ketone levels tend to naturally fluctuate a bit without there seemingly to be a reason? Also, I was ill yesterday and this morning the levels were lower , is that to be expected?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #114

Like blood sugar, ketone levels vary throughout the day. This is normal.

(Eve) #115

Thanks

(Eve) #116

Is the amount of fat allowed literally LIMITLESS ? I find l get quite hungry still but obviously won’t fill up on carbs and don’t want to overeat protein so presumably l just consume fat until no longer hungry?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #117

Some people need more protein, others get by on less. The idea is that you want enough to spare your muscles and have the resources to strengthen muscle and bone. Fat is merely the energy source that replaces carbohydrate, and because it contains more calories per gram, we need far less fat to provide the same amount of calories.

Some researchers believe that people have an instinct for eating the amount of protein they need. If your meals are not assuaging your hunger, then perhaps you need more protein. When we get enough protein, then it becomes easy for fat to satisfy our hunger, but when protein is inadequate, no amount of fat will satisfy us. So you will have to experiment to figure out the relative proportions of protein and fat that will nourish your body.

Our recommendation on this site is to eat 1.0-1.5 g of protein per kg of lean body mass a day. Other experts recommend even more, up to 2.0 g/kg. Some people feel that there is no such thing as too much protein, while others feel that too much can interfere with ketogenesis. You’ll have to experiment to figure out how much you need. What is clear is that the RDA of 0.8 g/kg of lean mass is just the minimum necessary to replace our daily nitrogen loss, and even that isn’t enough for the top end of the population. Remember also, that getting 100 g of protein requires eating 400 g/14 oz. of meat, since meat is around 1/4 protein (fish is slightly less, so adjust accordingly).

(Eve) #118

That makes sense. I will increase the amount and see if l am still in ketosis. I weigh 52 kg which s approx 42kg lean body mass which at 2g per kg gives a max requirement of about 80g protein. I use an app to calculate how much protein foods are giving me, and 2 eggs, 2 oz cheese, a few nuts and a chicken breast /leg or other normal portion of meat, is just about it - Which doesn’t satisfy me, even along with a good amount of fat and a few carbs in other foods. I am literally eating knobs of butter and put cream in my coffee!
What do you think of this daily consumption?
And what is your average food?
I am very active btw,.exercising every day

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #119

These recommendations are just starting points, so don’t be afraid to fiddle with your proportions. Eighty grams of protein is about 11 oz. of meat, which just doesn’t seem like enough. (Of course I’m a man and much heavier than you, so there’s that.)

If you’re eating knobs of butter and are still not satisfied, I believe you need more protein than you are getting. Do you eat beef or pork? I don’t find chicken as satisfying. That’s probably just me, too, but it wouldn’t hurt to experiment, if you can. But for the record, there are keto experts (Ted Naiman, in particular) who claim that “too much protein isn’t a thing.” That’s not literally true, but their point is valid if you take it to mean, “Don’t fear protein.” Also, since you are exercising, more protein will help with muscle building and repair.

#121

My lean weight is surely below 50kg too and anything below 120-130g protein fails to satiate me. So I almost always eat more, I don’t try to go below as I just get hungry again and again and again. It’s fine, I still don’t reach the protein toxicity level, my body is smart and it always stops after 200g even on my “wildest” days.
It matters a little if I focus on leaner or fattier meat. I won’t get satiated without enough fat either so if I neglect my fat needs, I too easily overdo protein. If I have a leaner main meat, I include something fattier.
No, fat isn’t unlimited unless if you know you won’t overdo it. Some people have problems eating enough calories, imagine… I tend to overeat fat, no matter what I do so I should be careful.

And what Paul wrote, many of us just can’t get properly satiated with chicken or not easily (I eat 1 kg of it and nope, still hungry. I only tried that 2 times as it was annoying. but I did notice quite a few times that a pound of fowl is lovely, a nice snack but not feels a proper meal. I pair it up with some more substantial meat. pork for me but some people only get good satiation and satisfaction from ruminant meat).

I never got that. Many people focus on fat on carnivore. Like 80% but sometimes 90%. I saw people eating 60g protein on carnivore (they needed it, that’s true…), it’s very much possible.
Indeed, many carnivore eats much protein but isn’t that true for ketoers as well? If I just add some vegs, I wouldn’t eat any less protein, more like the opposite as carbs make me hungrier… Maybe plants satiate most ketoers…? They never had that effect on me except gluten…

But in the end it matters what the individual case is. I was just wondering a bit.

(Eve) #122

That is very helpful, as usual! I don’t eat beef or pork , the latter because it gives me bad acid indigestion and bloating, and the beef because of how intensively farmed most cattle are. However, l take your point, and shinita’s as well, that the protein l am eating just probably isn’t satisfying me. Fish, chicken and eggs are my staples. SO, l will worry less about overdoing the protein quantities. Also, @MattWisti, it may be that the carbs are stimulating my appetite, as you suggest. Or at the least, not helping. So, more protein, l will “embrace beef” and see what happens.
Thanks again all of you - what would l do without this forum :blush::+1:

#124

That still may work, try to have more protein first if it would be hard to change your items, maybe that is not even needed for you. These aren’t the best for me satiation wise (eggs are good just not the best) but we are all different regarding these things. And with 80g protein, it’s very easy to imagine that no matter what you eat, it just won’t be enough - as I have exactly that.

Good luck to find what works for you!

Why? I’ve read yolks are better raw or almost raw but they are still great in any form, aren’t they?
(I surely won’t stop eat hard-boiled eggs as they are so useful but I prefer them softer myself - hard ones still have their role. But I don’t even care about raw whites and their potential problems as I eat enough eggs “properly” too, I don’t need to be perfect).