Running

(Rebecca) #1

I am interested in hearing from other runners about how they feel running on LCHF.

I started LCHF in February and trained hard to adapting so I could run a half marathon in April. The Keto FLU hit me hard and it held me back for about 3 whole weeks. Once I broke through and got fat adapted I felt great - I was only down about 6 lbs from my starting weight then, but I made it. Since then I just finished my second half marathon three weeks after the first. I was slower in both than in previous halves that I have ran, but was over whelmed that I did both on very little carbs and no night before race pizza.
I have another half coming up in about 5 weeks, any advice on what to eat the morning before I take off. This is all new to me and I am loving it, I am now down 16 lbs, 4 1/2 months into LCHF. I feel a real difference in myself when running.

Running links
#2

What difference do you feel?

Maybe @trekkin1 has some perspectives for nutrition with running marathons??

(Rebecca) #3

Hello Fiorella,
The biggest difference is in my rump when running. I am not having lower back pain after long runs (7+ miles). I am short and stacked (well for a runner anyways), so the physical difference in my lower body after 16 lbs feels amazing.
I am 5’ 3" and have been running for a few years now. Slowly but surely I have added weight (train, gain as they say) and all last year I was feeling it.
My goal is to be healthy and happy - this diet has helped me so much with that.

(Rebecca) #4

@trekkin1 -
any suggestions about fueling before a half marathon?

(Jo Lo) #5

For halfs, we go out fasted. At half way we eat an Epic bison/bacon/cranberry bar. That’s it.
No hunger, no loss of energy. But we are pretty well fat adapted after 2.5 years.

We are training for a pretty nasty marathon (Madison marathon, Montana, my no. 73!) in July and we don’t plan to eat any differently. If we have hours before the start, sometimes we have bacon & eggs & coffee, but no carbs or sugar. Then you are not hungry for a long time. Oh, and we take salt tabs every hour in hot weather (S-caps).

We aren’t looking for high performance (I’m over 60), but we seem to be able to go a long long time on very little food. Last year we did a 9.5 hr ultra on a bar and some nuts. I also notice that during fat burning our respiration rate is much lower, which has also been noted by Phinney and Volek (FASTER study). So there’s none of the huffing and puffing that you often see at moderate effort in carb athletes. You just breathe, and cruise.

I recommend reading Mark Sisson’s How to fuel a marathon, meant for his primal advocates but can apply to keto. I’ve used his molasses drink, and liked it. We add chia seeds, which swell up and give you something to chew on for a while. But I’ve learned to avoid gels and other sugars, just no need. The last time I tried a gel it caused me gastric distress in the middle of a 50 miler.

(Tim W) #6

Oh boy, something right up my alley!

I have been running in a fasted state for over a year.

I either run in the AM, after about a 10-12 fast and or, run while doing long fasts.

In MY experience, you will start slow, follow Phinney and Volecks advice and have some sodium about 30 minutes prior to running and start slow, eventually, on a long enough timeline, you may “learn” to “feel” the energy shift after you run the muscles out of easy to use glycogen and start the slower (but runs longer!) fat burning process.

Some say you can’t run faster/do explosive moves in a fat fuel mode (having run out of most of the muscle glycogen). Others say you’ll never deplete the muscle glycogen fully (some studies show muscles retain glycogen even AFTER long runs/intensive workouts, a protective mechanism in case you ever have to run from a bear???).

I’ve found that I CAN do sprints etc towards the end of a run, even if I haven’t eaten in five days. Example, I ran 12 miles on day six of a fast, I was able to run mile 11 at an 8min pace, the rest of the run was around 9:45/10 min.

I’ve ran several marathons and a 50K with ZERO food/intake and started in a fasted state. I’ve had water once or twice but that’s about it. Now that it’s getting warmer I take my water belt and a couple of sodium capsules but I try and go without. I developed the “run without intake” process over the winter, I intend to consume water/electrolytes as needed for the summer.

Bottom line, if you have plenty of fat stores (I’m 5’11", 163, roughly 10-15% body fat) you can run a half and MORE without ANY fuel. Just be sure and train that way! Nothing new on race day! If you are truly fat adapted, you can skip ALL the pre-race dinner BS, don’t worry about breakfast and skip the gels and crap while running (stay away from the gatorade too, it’s loaded with sugar!).

Like you, I’ve found that running in a keto state is easier on the body and I don’t have to worry about “carbing up” the day prior. Also, feel free to ignore the "you MUST eat within the first 30 minutes post exercise or your muscles will atrophy and you’ll DIE if you don’t take XXXX supplement. I do my long runs Sunday morning, up to 30 miles, fasted at least 10-12 hours, and don’t eat until 4-5 hours post run, no issue (except loss of body fat!).

Good luck on the next half!

(Tim W) #7

I’m going to search for those. On my 50K I did get ran down towards the end but I’m 99% sure it was due to hydration, not a fuel issue. It was warm for FEB and the sun was out more than expected. I waited until mile 28 to drink anything and my time fell off pretty sharply.

I turned around a few weeks later and paced a 5 hour marathon (go to “run” it for free! Yeah!) and I did that whole thing with two sips of water, but it was COLD and raining, hell, snowing even, that day so hydration was not an issue.

(Rebecca) #8

Thank you and to @trekkin1 -

I love reading all of this, it really helps.
I am going to look into the bison bars and the sodium caps. I am still having a hard time getting enough sodium in me. I often feel dizzy upon standing and getting out of bed in the mornings.

Like I said, I have ran two halves so far with minimal carbs before (2 tbs of natural peanut butter and a lo carb wrap and coffee) and none during. I have a couple of really hot runs coming up and I need to make sure I can make it. I train without drinking but after I stop running the sweat just pours out. I don’t feel comfortable drinking while running, it always makes me feel sluggish. Any suggestions? I have a 15 k in ten days from now and a half the second week in June, it will get hotter as we go.

(Tim W) #9

What are you drinking on your run?

Tim Noakes suggests that the whole HYDRATE HYDRATE HYDRATE while running is overblown.

If you are not dizzy/nauseous/having other negative impacts from not hydrating on the run, then ignore it?

If you are dizzy standing up etc, you probably DO need more sodium/electrolytes. I’ve finally got my SO to start taking 1/4 TSP sodium 3-4 times a day (as suggested by many on these forums and other keto sites) and she’s doing much better with over-all feeling “right” while fasting/on keto.

Maybe try Brenda Zorn’s keto aid, I’ve found it works for me and keeps calf cramps to a minimum (it’s MUCH better cold!).

I’d guess that if you added some keto aid or other low/no sugar electrolytes/tabs/caps a few days before your run, and pre-loaded (30 min prior) and ensure you hydrate afterwards, you’ll probably be ok unless running for several hours or more. I REALLY don’t believe that you have to guzzle gatoraide/other liquids every 20 minutes (many races have hydration every 2 miles or so) while racing, having too much water/not enough sodium leads to bloating and maybe the sluggishness you feel?

One trick is to weigh yourself before a run and afterwards, that will give some measure of the amount of fluid lost during the run, if the weight swing isn’t excessive, that’s a good sign.

(Rebecca) #10

Thanks,
I do not drink while running. whether it’s a short run, or a longer one I do not feel the need to drink. I was just wondering about with the warmer weather and hot sun beaming down.
I will trying weighing before and after my long run this weekend. That is a great tip. Also I will add the salt to my water before I run and see how I feel.

(Jo Lo) #11

Just drink to thirst. You want to avoid bloating and hyponatremia. Its not likely to be a problem during a half marathon, but numerous people (mostly women) have died from overdrinking water during marathons. Something to be aware of as they push water at you at every aid station…

I once got hyponatremia at the Yakima, WA marathon (my 26th marathon or ultra) on a warm but not hot day. They proudly had water at every single mile marker, and handed you a big bottle at the finish line. So after finishing (4 hrs) I got dizzy, slurred speech, and started to keel over. Two guys helped me to the first aid tent where kind but stupid nurses offered me more water! Finally a participant (doctor) came up with salt tabs and then I recovered quickly. But it was an awful feeling; quite helpless and out of it. Funny thing was I didn’t drink that much water on the course, but it was enough to wash salt out of my system and make me ill. At that time I ate very little salt in my diet.

Be sure that your salt caps have a bunch (hundreds of mg) of sodium in them. Some of them have only like 60 mg, which is nothing. We use S-Caps, developed for ultra-runners–they solved my problem with cramping and feeling sour at the end of longer runs. It is a good idea to eat some salty food prior to the event, and front-load sodium. Especially if you are keto, you need a lot of salt (4-6 g/day). Don’t worry about your blood pressure, that was all another myth…

I wouldn’t worry about weighing. You will lose some H2O weight but its just temporary. All the faster runners in important races are dehydrated, and it doesn’t hurt them… we evolved to handle that a long time ago. Dehydration is not the enemy, at least in the short term.

(Tim W) #12

Lots of good advice!

Noakes expounds on the dangers of too much water/not enough sodium, funny how, in some races/sports, that leads to more issues than dehydration.

One note on the salt caps/large doses of sodium, PRACTICE!

Some find that large “hits” of sodium (caps or in water etc.) leads to “QUICK” bowel emptying. I’ve had that experience, I’ve been on the lower end of hydration and constipated, one sodium cap and it was business as usual. I’ve also had reactions while running but that only seems to happen if my sodium is low or I am not in a “good” balance.

#13

Noakes also says to not bother with electolytes during a marathon. He says to drink to thirst and if that means nothing during a marathon then that is fine. I concur with both those positions in my experience. I’ll have plenty of salt, food and water the day before the marathon and then nothing until after the run.

Listen around the 51-minute mark: https://theketogenicathlete.com/episode-15-professor-tim-noakes-shares-how-keto-helps-endurance/

(Jo Lo) #14

Just saw this new research on salt. Sort of relevant?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/08/health/salt-health-effects.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

(Tim W) #15

Interesting read, another crack in the “established” body of knowledge when it comes to nutrition etc.

"Dr. Titze assured them that they were getting exactly enough food to maintain their weights, and were eating the same amount on the lower-salt diets, when hunger did not seem to be problem.

But urine tests suggested another explanation. The crew members were increasing production of glucocorticoid hormones, which influence both metabolism and immune function."

It appears that, once again, hormones are more likely “to blame” than simple processes/models like CICO or Salt in/Salt out (SISO???).

(Jo Lo) #16

Good observation. BTW I found the article on Gary Taube’s twitter feed. Go figure.

(Rebecca) #17

Thank you all so much. This is all great advice, and really good to know. I am even more excited about my long run this weekend. I am going to practice, practice, practice with my salt and water.

Anyone running the Biltmore 15k this weekend in Asheville, NC?

(Jo Lo) #18

No but I’ve been there and walked the grounds. What a beautiful estate to run 15k in! Stunning.

(Tiffany Blount) #19

This is great info! I have just begun my journey into keto and after a 6 month rest due to health reasons, also trying to get back on a running schedule. My goal is to run my first full marathon in 2018. I have run two half marathons since fall of 2016 (both as a vegan fueled carb burner), but have always run fasted or pretty darn close to it for the simple fact that I feel like my digestion is pretty slow and historically on the weaker side, so I get cramps and feel sluggish if I eat before runs. This transition to a high fat diet and also back to some animal products has made me question whether I will be able to run a full marathon without any fuel during the race. I can’t really see myself successfully finishing while asking my body to digest complex foods during the race. I am a 5’7, 160 lb female, so I should have plenty of fat stores on board for the race. It’s encouraging to know that you can run a full marathon without additional fuel during the race. Thanks!

(ianrobo) #20

100% you can do a marathon fasted, why the top athletes do so when I see Mo Farah advertise oats I know it is BS !! All you will need though are salt tabs