Your not digesting it, the gut flora microbiome is the one digesting something it can digest and that is a soluble fiber?
Increased fiber intake? Maybe you think we talking about eating tons of resistant starch, come on use your head here?
I do know high fructose corn syrup HFCS seems to be a culprit in this equation, I really would like to see some research that would support this damage theory she speaks so highly of with resistant starch and the quality of starch used to support this statement?
Edit: My bad, I see your talking about “potato starch” in which case I would agree! Cooking potatos or processing it (potato starch flakes) may have something to do with it? But then again eating raw potato’s could be poisonous if you eat too much of it with exception of eating raw sweet potato’s… I personally don’t eat potato’s or resistant starch from potato’s!
Dave: If someone’s new to this idea of starch, we all know starch and starch is potato, starch is rice, starch is bread – things like that. These are different though because these are stuff that your body cannot actually digest but things that the gut bacteria can digest, right?
Grace: That’s absolutely right.
Commentary: The transcript (above) is astoundingly awesome!
I still don’t see the benefit of eating stuff that in any other form we wouldn’t touch with a barge pole…especially if it has to be processed. Are our bodies really that stupid? I’ll continue to avoid thanks.
Yes indeed. That’s what got me keen on Type 3 RS (refried basmati doses 1-3 times a week), which has had very positive impacts for me. That concentrated potato starch has never appealed to me!
I also learned about soil-based organisms from her - which may expedite gut healing for folks the first few months of LCHF/keto.
Is this just wrong??
I don’t have a real opinion on this topic but would point out that this is not a statement with normative implications. It may be the case that your flora adapt… But how does that new colony of bacteria perform in forming the mucosal lining and other anti-cancer activities?
I think the traditional assumption is that more types of bacteria, in sufficient quantity, is what can be associated with decreased cancer. With that logic, a biome that has been culled to just those species that digest meat might in theory not provide protection. I understand that traditional assumptions also do not account for ZC, but I don’t think the logic is all that different given the mechanisms by which cancer cells procreate
And with respect to all that are offering evolutionary extrapolations, I think we just cannot prove that vast populations (half the world, half the time), lived ZC. If anything, our exposure to modern hunter gatherers suggests a lot of gathering! And a variety of species of animals… I don’t think we can draw a line from a hypothetical ZC ancestor to our pork/beef/chicken/fish diet. Maybe if we added some bugs, some rodents, some reptiles… and even then, my completely uneducated assumption is that this ZC ancestor was probably fairly rare.
The article predates the whole resistant starch going mainstream and regards fiber mania. It was not in response to anything you or Slow Burn Mary has posted. In fact, Ms. Liu talks in the podcast that Mary linked, about the dangers of psyllium and some other fiber supplements to the gut microbiome. And of course, the potato starch.
Thank you for the links.
I am intrigued, but my concern would be feeding a bad microbiome with a leaky gut. Having a couple autoimmune disorders, I probably need to, in the parlance of Ms. Liu, Weed and Seed before I Feed.
I see she has a tool to interpret results from UBiome, which I had been highly skeptical of, given that they apparently don’t give you any corrective or optimization type of action. I could be in for that if it’s not too expensive.
Amber O’Hearn really nails it down and I think she is 100% correct although I disagree on the evolutionary aspects and perspectives.
What I see is that the monstrous amount of veggies being advocated that we should eat, as being healthy, is wrong and absolutely unnecessary, they are carbs that do not get digested and is too excessive other then for the purposes of temporarily cleaning up the liver like leafy greens, cruciferous veggies and garlic; the only three (scientifically evident) that possibly serve any useful purpose, other than for healing a fatty liver, although we may not need carbs from insoluble or soluble fiber or need carbs period, the gut bugs may need them (soluble fiber) periodically but not very much, very very little!
The reason I eat a little non-fortified nutritional yeast, wheatgrass and stuff like chlorella, spirulina has to do with extracting natural organic nutrients by what-ever means possible, and other things like a little periodic resistant starch from un-ripe green bananas has nothing to do with getting soluble fiber for my body but to feed my gut bug friends I am host to?
Why do we eat so many veggies;
If your not buying all these veggies, the farmers and company are not making any money?
I love this Amber O’Hearn presentation video and learn something new every time I watch it!
KetoCon 2017 Amber O’Hearn The Carnivorous Human
Commentary: We are just not designed nor intended to eat more veggies/plant matter than our body can tolerate…
I LOVE Amber
me too! a fan! ️
Thanks for the response @atomicspacebunny!
I enjoyed this talk. I am completely open to the idea that we would thrive better on a ZC diet (or a carnivorous diet, if that is a better descriptor). I found that she made a few leaps I was not willing to take alongside her…
First, her argument that isoflavones etc work through a similar mechanism to chemotherapy (ie, ingesting a toxin to kill cancer cells) does not seem accurate to me. For example, this talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz4YVJ4aRfg&t=717s (which I found after listening to the really excellent interview she did with Ron Krauss that you posted @atomicspacebunny - thanks for posting that!), suggests that sulforaphane acts to combat cancer in a variety of ways, to include triggering the production of enzymes in our body and the protection of gene expressions that are correlated with lower rates of cancer. Also, Amber presents a general argument that plants are unhealthy to ingest because they have evolved protective measures to prevent animals ingesting them. This is not the case in berries and fruit - they are sweet and attractive because this leads to seed-spreading.
Second, I understand her evolutionary argument that smaller colon suggests that we have evolved to function better on a fat-based diet. I do not necessarily think it follows from this that the consumption of no RS or vegetable/fruit matter is healthier than the consumption of small amounts of carefully chosen types. I think that logic and scientific interventions have demonstrated that some plants and fruits inhibit cancer growth and aging…
Third, as we have discussed in this thread, I do not agree that the only function of a gut microbiome is digestion. If this was the case, I would completely agree that a carnivorous diet would not negatively impact overall health (at least through its effect on the microbiome). But, from my limited understanding (and I am open to correction!), our microbiome has multiple purposes, including immune responses… Sure, if we don’t eat fiber (which I am not suggesting we need - I think that is clear), we don’t need bacteria that digests fiber. But, what about the other functions of the biome? And how does a ZC diet impact those functions? (though I agree with the point raised above that we need to weed and seed before feeding!)
Fourth, yes, large consumption of poisonous tubers is bad. But, what about the middle ground - small consumption of cruciferous vegetables and a small amount of berries? I am not saying we need fiber or vitamins from these items, as clearly we don’t need the fiber and we can get vitamins from meat. But that doesn’t mean that they are either a) bad for us or b) not good for us.
As I said, I am not an expert, and I am very open to people correcting me! I am new to considering ZC/carnivore and it is likely that those of you that have researched and implemented this diet have thought way more about these topics than me. I would love some thoughts on these points - please let me know if I am off base
I’m going to continue to eat some plants. I’ll stay to the cuciferous and leafy green vegetables. Mostly because I like the taste of them. I like the fullness I feel when consuming fibrous vegetables. And my tummy feels better when I have I have a mixture of fiberous vegetables or leafy, greens and meat and fat. Not sure I need them or don’t need them but I do like them
You guys seem to have done a lot of research, so I’d like your opinion on my situation.
I worked hard to grow good gut bugs, and I don’t want to kill them! I did the “breaking the vicious cycle” diet for a year, which eliminates all carbs that feed gut bugs (good and bad) and then reestablishes healthy flora with homemade yogurt kefir and fermented veggies. That was 5 years ago. Now I’m 3 weeks into Keto and worried about all the little gut critters, but nervous about resistant starches due to the studies showing that it may increase colon cancer in some situations.
What I’ve gathered from all the articles and studies I’ve read is that when type 2 resistant starches are taken alone, colon cancer chances increase (in mice genetically given a predisposition to it), and when it RS are taken with wheat bran (or presumably other fiber), incidence of tumors go down. Also, Butyrate/RS suppress growth of early polyps/tumors, but exacerbates existing tumors.
I’ve had several adenomatous polyps in the last 10 years, starting in my 30’s and one pre-cancerous one measuring 2.7 cm. My younger sister has dozens of polyps. 2 of my grandparents have died of colon cancer, though they were in their late 70’s, early 80’s. Even with all this, I have not been diagnosed with Lynch’s or FAP’s, which are the 2 hereditary diseases associated with the conditions set up with the mice (as far as I can understand) in the study that showed an increase in growth of tumors. with resistant starches.
Also, it makes sense that sticking to one form of RS is only going to feed one type of bacteria, which is not healthy. Diversity is the key to a healthy gut biome! So I’m cautiously taking a tsp. of potato starch once in a while, and will eat half a green banana when I find one. I’ll also fry some cold rice when I find it leftover in the fridge. I’m thinking twice a week of these little amounts of alternating types of RS would be okay. Thoughts?
A few of the many articles I read:
Hey, we invented Christmas because we like presents alright! And days off from work.
And it works perfectly…lol
I think that is a great idea, it makes me appreciate how little carbohydrates our gut bug friends actually need! The host does not really require carbs to live!
I’ve been thinking I would try this hidden in a steaming, creamy pile of cauli Mac & Cheese, so my all-too-temptable brain would still be eating keto. Plus, I can hide the rice from my hubby (he’s paranoid about eating rice - no exaggeration).
I’m going to try making a keto “English Muffin” out of pork rind pancake batter (not my idea, someone else already tried it) with the addition of some coarse almond meal to simulate the corn meal coating. If it works out, I’m sure you’ll see it on “what did you keto today?”