Realistic about carbs - inspiration

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #28

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #29

I think the title of this talk is a bit off. Yes, she does talk about how she thinks mental health and diet are related causally. More importantly she talks about the very serious shortcomings of plant based diets for what she terms ‘brain health’ and eating what the brain needs.

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #30

Why Humans Don’t Need Dietary Carbohydrates to Thrive Phinney, Bailey, Volek Mar 25, 2019

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #31

Vit C, Vit C, Vit C… Aren’t their other vitamins and nutrients to be concerned about as well ?
I mean, if vitamin C is the only thing we need to be concerned with, couldn’t a person easily supplement with 300% of the recommended daily allowance, and absorb enough of it, to keep from dying from malnutrition ? A while ago I was thinking about how I cut out my daily orange juice, and a most other fruits as well, and I got a little concerned. Then I looked at the nutritional label on my replacement for orange juice…
Turns out my Ocean Spray Cran Cherry contains 100% of the daily recommended allowance.
What’s more, it’s sweetened with the best sweetener on Earth :wink:

Of course, I do eat other stuff with Vit C too. Some Blueberries, Strawberries, etc.

So I’m quite sure I’m okay with Vit C. What is next on the list with deficiencies I need to be concerned with ? Magnesium ? Well I actually do take a magnesium supplement to. Potassium ? Hmmm. Looking into that one.

I think most of the folks around here are Sucralose deficient :grinning: lol

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #32

Of course. I only used vitamin C as an example in my above post here since vitamin C deficiency is frequently trotted out as the primary danger of not eating large amounts of fruits and vegetables. On the other hand, in the YouTube link above Ede talks about many of the deficiencies caused by plant-based diets, particularly those that eschew all meat products.

The bottom line is if you eat a diet of fats and proteins derived primarily from meat/animal sources supplemented by small amounts of green leafy vegetables you will not suffer deficiencies. Pretty much what our ancestors ate for the past 2 million years and the way we have evolved to thrive. Plant-based, high carb diets are a recent experiment that has already failed. The casualties walk among us.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #34

Okay. Got you. Vit C just seems like such an easy thing to rectify “even if” one had a deficiency ? The “expensive” one to handle, is Potassium, which is also the one I am most concerned about.

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #35

Potassium is easy: French’s No Salt. I mix it with Redmond’s Real Salt (for sodium) and plain Epsom salt (for magnesium) to make my electrolyte mix. Be advised that many folks on this forum will warn you against supplementing potassium. The RDA is 3500-5000 mg per day, which translates to 7000-10000 mg of No Salt. So in my opinion you are unlikely to come even close to that. So don’t worry. Most dietary sources of potassium are off the keto menu and aren’t very good anyway. No Salt is your best bet.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #36

So I had read their were different types of Potassium… K1 and K2… others ? … and that only one of these was easy to get… The other was much harder, and in supplement form, very expensive… Do you know what this is about ?

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #37

K1 and K2 are vitamins. Potassium is a mineral. Yes, the chemical symbol for potassium is ‘K’, but it’s not the same thing. Maybe ‘K1’ and ‘K2’ contain some potassium or not. I don’t know.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #38

Yea, I keep confusing that…

So what is a Keto’er more likely to be deficient in ? K1, K2, or Potassium ?

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #39

I don’t know. I’d guess it depends on one’s food choices. I never even heard about K1/K2 before a couple years ago. I supplement my electrolytes to try to control night leg cramps. I suffered from them before I went keto so nothing to do with keto per se. I have managed to gain a measure of control over the cramping so I’m hopeful I’m on the right course with my electrolyte spplentation.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #40

To be completely honest, as great as Keto has been to me in so many ways, I do seem to cramp more now, which makes me all the more concerned about my potassium levels…

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #41

Just throwing this out there. I don’t supplement and sometimes I get cramps. I find those are the nights I didn’t drink enough that day or for a few days prior. So, dehydration most likely. If I pound the water and drink pickle juice they go away within an hour.

(Bunny) #42

All the variety of micronutrients are essential within the carbohydrates of Whole Foods that you cannot get from eating ONLY muscle meats and are in perfect ratios for the human body!

An inescapable fact?

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #43

Who said anything about eating ONLY muscle meats? I asked you to name one essential carbohydrate. You have yet to do so simply because you can not do so. You know as well as the rest of us that there is none. If there is no essential carbohydrate, then there is no essential nutrient that can not be obtained otherwise.

That is the inescapable fact.

PS: For those of you who don’t know where this particular exchange began:

My initial post and following until I asked Bunny to bring the discussion back to this topic.

(Bunny) #44

Please explain how I did not?

Your saying one (1) essential carbohydrate, just wondering how you assumed one (1)?

One (1) cannot be question in a micronutritional or macronutritional context?

When you over-eat meat it is the same as burning carbohydrates, your still burning sugar when your in ketosis?

When you eat more fat with moderate protein you raise your glucose and sometimes not insulin?

So if your trying to glorify protein and fat as the panacea that is only an assumption?

You can still eat low carbohydrates ONLY and achieve the same result!

Dietary fat seems to be the switch if you eat constantly like three meals a day with carbs, it inhibits insulin or puts serious breaks on how much insulin the pancreatic beta cells release? (read a much more complex version of that here by hyperlipid?

You could eat high carbohydrates (maybe even junk food?) and lot of it but not eat as often and achieve the same result!

(Bunny) #45

…And again what kind/types of protein are you talking about eating ONLY long-term? Strictly lean muscle meats? A combination of lean & fatty meats, glandulars, organs, milk (raw?), eggs etc?

Here are some other things to consider that may contradict your conclusions?

Other Reasons an All-Meat Diet May Not Be Healthy

It Lacks Beneficial Phytonutrients

Phytonutrients are chemicals that are produced by plants to protect against environmental threats, such as attacks from insects and disease. They can also have major benefits for our health. Curcumin, beta-carotene, quercetin, and resveratrol are all examples of common phytonutrients.

Some proponents of the carnivore diet suggest that phytonutrients are toxic to humans, and that it’s best to eliminate them completely from our diet. However, many of these “toxins” act as acute stressors that actually make us stronger through a process called hormesis .

Much like resistance training is an acute stressor that leads our muscles to adapt and get stronger, exposure to small amounts of phytonutrients is a hormetic stressor that activates several different pathways in the body, ultimately serving to reduce inflammation, enhance immunity, improve cellular communication, repair DNA damage, and even detoxify potential carcinogens. (14, 15)

It Might Affect Hormones, Fertility, and Thyroid Function

We have zero long-term data about how an all-meat diet impacts hormones, thyroid function, and fertility. I have written before about why carbohydrates are particularly important for female fertility and why very-low-carb diets may not be the best choice during pregnancy.

Carbohydrates are particularly important for supporting thyroid function since insulin stimulates the conversion of inactive thyroid hormone T4 to active T3. In fact, traditional cultures that ate largely animal products and had little access to plant foods often went to great lengths to support fertility, including eating the thyroid glands of the animals they hunted. (16)

My guess is that most modern “carnivores” are not consuming the thyroid glands of animals and are therefore at risk for suboptimal thyroid function and (at least temporary) infertility.

It Could Overtax Your Liver (If You’re Eating Lean Meat)

When you don’t eat sufficient carbohydrates and fat, your liver can make glucose from protein via a process called gluconeogenesis . This process creates nitrogen waste, which must be converted to urea and disposed of through the kidneys.

While this is a normal process that occurs in every human being, there is a limit to how much protein the liver can cope with safely. More than 35 to 40 percent of total calories as protein can overwhelm the urea cycle, leading to nausea, diarrhea, wasting, and, potentially, death. For pregnant women, this threshold may be as low as 25 percent of total calories. (17)

Interestingly, anthropological evidence suggests that hunters throughout history avoided consuming excess protein, even discarding animals low in fat when food was scarce. (18)

In short: When eating meat, it’s important to have a good amount of healthy fats or quality carbohydrates as well.

Were Any Ancestral Populations Carnivores?

Let’s start with a brief look at the diets of some supposedly “carnivorous” ancestral populations. Indeed, many ancestral groups thrived on large quantities of animal products. However, every single one of these groups also took advantage of plant foods when they were available:

  • The nomads of Mongolia nourished themselves on meat and dairy products, but also gained nutrients from their consumption of wild onions and garlic, tubers and roots, seeds, and berries. (1)
  • Gaucho Brazilians consumed mostly beef, but they supplemented their diet with yerba mate, an herbal infusion rich in vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients. (2)
  • The Maasai, Rendille, and Samburu from East Africa primarily ate meat, milk, and blood. Young men almost exclusively ate these animal products but also occasionally consumed herbs and tree barks. Women and older men consumed fruit, tubers, and honey. (3)
  • The Russian Arctic Chukotka subsisted on fish, caribou, and marine animals but always ate them with local roots, leafy greens, berries, or seaweed. (4)
  • The Sioux of South Dakota ate great amounts of buffalo meat, but they also ate wild fruit, nuts, and seeds that they found as they followed the buffalo herds. (5)
  • The Canadian Inuit lived primarily on walrus, whale meat, seal, and fish, but they also went to great lengths to forage wild berries, lichens, and sea vegetables. They even fermented some of these plant foods as a way of preserving them. (6)

Every culture we know of that has been studied ate some combination of animal and plant foods. This does not necessarily mean that animal or plant foods are required to remain healthy, but it does speak to the ancestral wisdom of these cultures. …More

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #46

That’s all very interesting and totally irrelevant. I stated a scientific fact: there is no essential carbohydrate. You denied that fact. When challenged to name an essential carbohydrate to support your claim, you instead talk about eating muscle meat exclusively. Just admit you’re wrong.

If you want to discuss the supposed drawbacks of the keto and/or keto/carnivore diet caused by not eating carbs create a topic and state your case. I’m sure it will draw vigorous response.

(Bunny) #47

There are essential micronutrients within the unprocessed carbohydrates!

…again the naming of one (1) essential carbohydrate cannot be a question as you did not specify what type of carbohydrate you are discussing and thus you need clarify this so there is thus no cross validated science to cover the loop holes in your statements? (keep in mind those are your own personal beliefs not scientific fact so let’s not confuse the two)

A metabolically fit goes into ketosis irregardless of carbohydrates, the body eventually quits going into ketosis naturally in even ketone body to glucose ratios, it is when you over-eat carbohydrates (esp. the processed stuff) that’s when you have to force the body back into ketosis through diet to get it working again but at some point you can again start eating carbohydrates and be disciplined enough to understand your individual capacity to stay away from or not eat too much of the processed stuff and eat Whole Foods?

So there it is in a nutshell, it really is that simple!

Maybe 5, 10, 20 years down the road you will realize just how correct the real science is about this?

(Michael - Don't expect miracles and you won't be disappointed.) #48

Let us know when you publish your RCT naming all those essential micronutrients that are only available in carbs. I’m sure it will be a fascinating read.