Realistic about carbs - inspiration

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

If you think you’re ‘giving up’ anything by eating keto, read this.

(Bunny) #20

I find that a rather strange statement? When you could easily eat a little protein to release glycogen then the brain gets endogenous glucose? That’s only if it needs it, If enough of the three ketone bodies are not available to it?


[1] “…Ketone bodies are particularly important for the brain which has no other substantial non-glucose-derived energy source. The two main ketone bodies are acetoacetate (AcAc) and 3 -hydroxybutyrate (3HB) also referred to as β-hydroxybutyrate, with acetone the third, and least abundant. …” …More



[2] “…During starvation, the kidney becomes an important site of gluconeogenesis and may contribute as much as half of the blood glucose. Liver: The metabolic activities of the liver are essential for providing fuel to the brain, muscle, and other peripheral organs. …” …More

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #21

From here, linked directly before @atomicspacebunny last post:

However, the body limits glucose utilization to reduce the need for gluconeogenesis. In the liver in the well-fed state, acetyl CoA formed during the β-oxidation of fatty acids is oxidized to CO2 and H2O in the citric acid cycle. However, when the rate of mobilization of fatty acids from adipose tissue is accelerated, as, for example, during very low carbohydrate intake, the liver converts acetyl CoA into ketone bodies: Acetoacetate and 3-hydroxybutyrate. The liver cannot utilize ketone bodies because it lacks the mitochondrial enzyme succinyl CoA:3-ketoacid CoA transferase required for activation of acetoacetate to acetoacetyl CoA [3]. Therefore, ketone bodies flow from the liver to extra-hepatic tissues (e.g., brain) for use as a fuel; this spares glucose metabolism via a mechanism similar to the sparing of glucose by oxidation of fatty acids as an alternative fuel. Indeed, the use of ketone bodies replaces most of the glucose required by the brain. [My emphasis]

Not all amino acid carbon will yield glucose; on average, 1.6 g of amino acids is required to synthesize 1 g of glucose [4]. Thus, to keep the brain supplied with glucose at rate of 110 to 120 g/day, the breakdown of 160 to 200 g of protein (close to 1 kg of muscle tissue) would be required. This is clearly undesirable, and the body limits glucose utilization to reduce the need for gluconeogenesis and so spare muscle tissue. In comparison with glucose, the ketone bodies are a very good respiratory fuel. Whereas 100 g of glucose generates 8.7 kg of ATP, 100 g of 3-hydroxybutyrate can yield 10.5 kg of ATP, and 100 g of acetoacetate 9.4 kg of ATP [5]. The brain will use ketone bodies whenever provided with them (i.e., whenever blood ketone body levels rise). [My emphasis]

Although some studies suggest that pre-exercise muscle glycogen stores determine capacity for prolonged exercise [12], there is no clear requirement for dietary carbohydrates for human adults [13]. Current carbohydrate recommendations are based on 1) preventing ketosis, and 2) providing glucose beyond minimal needs. However, it is clear that ketosis is not harmful [14-16], except in the high levels seen in type 1 diabetes. Also, the need to provide glucose above minimal needs is exactly what has never been demonstrated [14]. Indeed, the National Research Council has not established Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for carbohydrates, probably because the human body can adapt to a carbohydrate-free diet and manufacture the glucose it needs.

(Bunny) #22

That is only temporary because the ketone bodies quit rising when the body is forced into ketosis long-term, we also go into ketosis when we sleep if we are metabolically fit and not forcing the body into ketosis also.

Dietary carbohydrate does not prevent the body from going into ketosis, the body will usually default to glucose first (e.g. from excessive protein intake) Ketogenic diet or not if enough is available rather than to ketone bodies?

My question to this is why does the salivary gland only produce amylase (enzyme for digesting carbohydrates), if exogenous carbohydrates are not necessary; something is deeply wrong with attempting to gloss over that fact?

That will always be a severe thorn in the side of the meat and fat only argument?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #23

@atomicspacebunny What exactly are you arguing? That there is/are essential carbohydrate(s)? If you think so, please name one. That there is/are essential nutrient(s) only available from eating carbohydrate(s)? If you think so, please name one. That ‘carbohydrate’ is not just another name for sugar? If so, please explain why every single carbohydrate is chemically a saccharide. Please cite references.

Are you arguing that dietary/nutritional ketosis is an unhealthy state? That consuming carbohydrates in other than insignificant and incidental amounts is healthy? That gluconeogenesis does not synthesize all the glucose we need and therefore we have to eat carbohydrates to get it? That some combination of carbohydrates consumed at some amounts at some intervals is metabolically beneficial? Then that’s just your opinion and for every reference you can cite supporting your opinion, I can cite another not supporting it.

BTW, I agree that amylase in saliva is an interesting question. I suspect it’s another holdover from our primate ancestry when starting the digestion of complex carbs (ie cellulose) was nutritionally important. But you’ve already disagreed with me about that.

(Bunny) #24

It is not what I think, it is what I know!

Your probably thinking of a definition or playing on definitions to define something in its entirety? (don’t forget there are other things in those compounds and substances your defining as carbohydrates that are vital to the life of all creatures on the planet including us)

So your idea is to define everything as a carbohydrate therefore it’s BAD if it is not meat or fat? (what you would like everyone to do? NO? YES?)

Vitamins, minerals & trace elements:

All (variety) Whole Foods are essential carbohydrates for the human body not because they are essentially a carbohydrate (that is only one definition) but because of the micronutritional values and the combination of amounts contained in perfect ratios within plants, fruits and vegetables (that also includes the micronutrients contained in meat and fat and whether or not it is grass fed or free range like chickens and eggs etc.)?

The human body can store some of these micronutrients up to ten years and others it does not store, there is a delicate balance of ratios that go into the digestion process and the chemical conversion synthesis the body uses to convert those micronutrients into other micronutrients in vegetables, fruit ( that includes meat and fat) including the way those various types sugars are processed (exogenous vs. endogenous production), when you remove those micronutrients and fiber from the sugars and just eat the sugar that is what causes the problem and thus the fear being exploited in various dietary science circles?

When the human body does not have enough micronutrients from combination of plants; vegetables, fruit, protein and fat it can cause breaks in the chromosomes when the body cannot produce it on it’s own after a period of time.

For example vitamin B-12 comes from herbivores eating dirt (soil based probiotics/microbiome) and plants where it is fermented in the gut[8][9]…

Some of these micronutrients are in meat but not all[1], just because you eat meat that does not guarantee you will get micronutrients from that either, because you are essentially eating what ever the animal you are eating ate but you are cooking the meat (a true carnivore does not cook the meat it eats, not intended to eat cooked or processed foods), so why can’t you eat what the herbivore is eating? That makes no sense being you are an omnivore? You can eat only meat and fat to the point where you don’t require vitamins but that’s placing yourself in grave danger of chromosomal damage shortening your life span considerably? The other problem is over-eating protein and throwing your nitrogen balance off and damaging your kidneys to where your losing lean body mass and bone density with time because of the acidity…

I want to make it very clear I’m not advocating to eat one way or the other, I’m simply demonstrating what your up against if you try to take this into any public domain dealing with dietary guidelines and public health anywhere in the world?

That said you better know all the answers to the other side of the tables equations or your going to end up looking real stupid?


[1] 10 Nutrients That You Can’t Get From Animal Foods

[2] ”…As long as the level of nitrogen taken in exceeds the amount being lost, then the nitrogen balance is positive. This means you have sufficient protein in your system to enable anabolism (muscle growth). If you are losing more protein through urine than you are taking in, you are in a negative nitrogen balance, and only catabolism (muscle wastage) can result. …” - Thomas Delauer

[3] “…This (image below) shows a population of people eating different amounts of protein (measured as a function of their lean body mass) and measuring who were able to stay in nitrogen balance on the axis. In other words people on the 0 line are eating the right amount of protein to maintain their bodies. The range of protein necessary to achieve that ranges from 0.35 - 1.0 which if you think about it is a really large range. …” …More

[4] Are long term high-protein diets harmful? Dr. Jason Fung: *Hard to say. There is some suggestion that high animal protein intake may cause osteoporosis. *Many of these proteins are acidic, which require neutralization in the body. This acid is buffered in the bones and then eventually the acid is excreted as phosphoric acid. Because bone consists of Calcium bound to phosphorus there is extra calcium which gets excreted in the urine. This leads to higher urinary calcium losses and potentially osteoporosis. …More

[5] Alkaline phosphatase (ALP): is an enzyme found in several tissues throughout the body. The highest concentrations of ALP are present in the cells that comprise bone and the liver. Elevated levels of ALP in the blood are most commonly caused by liver disease or bone disorders? …” …More

[6] ”…Saliva production is the exocrine function of the salivary glands. The buffering capacity of saliva is critical to neutralizing the oral environment. This minimizes the de-mineralization of enamel and enhances its re-mineralization. K2, such as that found in fermented cheese (OR GRASS FED MEAT?), improves salivary buffering through its influence on calcium and inorganic phosphates secreted. Data collected from several selected primitive cultures on the cusp of civilization demonstrated the difference in dental health due to diet. …More

[7] Hepatic ALT isoenzymes are elevated in gluconeogenic conditions including diabetes and suppressed by insulin at the protein level

-[8] Fermentation adds vitamin B12 to plant-based foods naturally

[9] In situ fortification of vitamin B12 in wheat flour and wheat bran by fermentation with Propionibacterium freudenreichii

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #25

This neatly sums up what I’m claiming.:point_up:

Your link to ‘10 nutrients’ not available from animal food… maybe, maybe not. Let’s take the first claim about vitamin C. I’ve linked a few ‘popular’ articles below. They all contain links to real science studies. But I think they are good reads in themselves. Interesting and to the point without overwhelming one, and with refs to the real science for those who want them. For example, from my first link Vitamin C Deficiency and the Ketogenic Diet:

... if your carbohydrate intake is high, you will have to increase your intake of vitamin C containing foods or natural supplements to get enough vitamin C to overcome the high blood sugar. It's only when eating the standard American diet which is high in carbohydrates and grain consumption that vitamin C needs are higher. Lowering your carb intake lowers the need to supplement with Vitamin C.

Because animals are able to make vitamin C internally, their flesh contains it. If you eat no carbohydrate at all, you can get enough vitamin C from lightly cooked meat and fat alone.

While studying the Inuit people in Alaska, anthropologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson documented the fact that the Inuit diet consisted of about 90% meat and fish. During his time there, he followed their custom, and he and the entire tribe would eat nothing but meat and fish for 6-9 months of each year. This was essentially a zero carb ketogenic diet. Stefansson survived on this ketogenic diet for 9 years while living with the Eskimo. When he returned to city life and described his experiences, doctors were amazed that his health had not suffered.

Stefansson himself wondered if his health had suffered during those years, so he agreed to an experimental study. He would live at the Bellevue hospital in New York City and eat nothing but fat and meat for an entire year. The doctors involved with this study came from Harvard, Cornell and other prestigious organizations, and they were convinced that he and another volunteer, Dr. Karsten Anderson, would develop health problems or at least vitamin deficiencies.

The volunteer's food intake was kept under close scientific scrutiny, so cheating was out of the question. The food that they ate was analyzed and the end of the study, the daily totals were averaged and noted... At the end of the experiment, Stefansson and Anderson remained in perfect health - no vitamin deficiencies or serious health issues occurred. The results of the study were published by the Journal of Biological Chemistry in 1930. Download from this site.

It's kind of ironic.. eating fruits and vegetables increases your carbohydrate intake, which increases the danger of a vitamin C deficiency. Good thing that fruits and vegetables have vitamin C included.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #26

For those of you who want some effective ammo to counter the more egregious lies, half-truths and misconceptions about keto this is a great article. It contains multiple links to add to your store of knowledge. I linked it in my above previous post, but thought it helpful to link to it here as well.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #27

On that we agree! :+1:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #28

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #29

I think the title of this talk is a bit off. Yes, she does talk about how she thinks mental health and diet are related causally. More importantly she talks about the very serious shortcomings of plant based diets for what she terms ‘brain health’ and eating what the brain needs.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #30

Why Humans Don’t Need Dietary Carbohydrates to Thrive Phinney, Bailey, Volek Mar 25, 2019

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #31

Vit C, Vit C, Vit C… Aren’t their other vitamins and nutrients to be concerned about as well ?
I mean, if vitamin C is the only thing we need to be concerned with, couldn’t a person easily supplement with 300% of the recommended daily allowance, and absorb enough of it, to keep from dying from malnutrition ? A while ago I was thinking about how I cut out my daily orange juice, and a most other fruits as well, and I got a little concerned. Then I looked at the nutritional label on my replacement for orange juice…
Turns out my Ocean Spray Cran Cherry contains 100% of the daily recommended allowance.
What’s more, it’s sweetened with the best sweetener on Earth :wink:

Of course, I do eat other stuff with Vit C too. Some Blueberries, Strawberries, etc.

So I’m quite sure I’m okay with Vit C. What is next on the list with deficiencies I need to be concerned with ? Magnesium ? Well I actually do take a magnesium supplement to. Potassium ? Hmmm. Looking into that one.

I think most of the folks around here are Sucralose deficient :grinning: lol

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #32

Of course. I only used vitamin C as an example in my above post here since vitamin C deficiency is frequently trotted out as the primary danger of not eating large amounts of fruits and vegetables. On the other hand, in the YouTube link above Ede talks about many of the deficiencies caused by plant-based diets, particularly those that eschew all meat products.

The bottom line is if you eat a diet of fats and proteins derived primarily from meat/animal sources supplemented by small amounts of green leafy vegetables you will not suffer deficiencies. Pretty much what our ancestors ate for the past 2 million years and the way we have evolved to thrive. Plant-based, high carb diets are a recent experiment that has already failed. The casualties walk among us.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #34

Okay. Got you. Vit C just seems like such an easy thing to rectify “even if” one had a deficiency ? The “expensive” one to handle, is Potassium, which is also the one I am most concerned about.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #35

Potassium is easy: French’s No Salt. I mix it with Redmond’s Real Salt (for sodium) and plain Epsom salt (for magnesium) to make my electrolyte mix. Be advised that many folks on this forum will warn you against supplementing potassium. The RDA is 3500-5000 mg per day, which translates to 7000-10000 mg of No Salt. So in my opinion you are unlikely to come even close to that. So don’t worry. Most dietary sources of potassium are off the keto menu and aren’t very good anyway. No Salt is your best bet.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #36

So I had read their were different types of Potassium… K1 and K2… others ? … and that only one of these was easy to get… The other was much harder, and in supplement form, very expensive… Do you know what this is about ?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #37

K1 and K2 are vitamins. Potassium is a mineral. Yes, the chemical symbol for potassium is ‘K’, but it’s not the same thing. Maybe ‘K1’ and ‘K2’ contain some potassium or not. I don’t know.

(Dirty Lazy Keto'er, Sucralose freak ;)) #38

Yea, I keep confusing that…

So what is a Keto’er more likely to be deficient in ? K1, K2, or Potassium ?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #39

I don’t know. I’d guess it depends on one’s food choices. I never even heard about K1/K2 before a couple years ago. I supplement my electrolytes to try to control night leg cramps. I suffered from them before I went keto so nothing to do with keto per se. I have managed to gain a measure of control over the cramping so I’m hopeful I’m on the right course with my electrolyte spplentation.