Questions.. Long post

(Craig Lloyd) #1

Hey all,

Iv been researching and think my next transition is from keto to carnivore but I’m somewhat nervous about it, I have a bunch of questions, as a lot of information seems to contridict each other

First a little background, I’m 37, male from the UK, started at 140kg(thats the recorded weight but wasn’t updated for 6 months) I started keto last Feb, before I started, I was type 2 diabetic, on insulin resistance medication, 3 blood pressure pills, now I’m only on 1 blood pressure pill nothing else, since keto i was down to 120kg but now 130kg, I was limiting to 1500 calories but have struggled this recently, as of Xmas I seem To be gaining weight after speaking with a specialist who said I need more veg, before I started eating more veg, I was mainly meat, mushrooms or eggs, ect

I don’t eat pasta, bread, sugar, cakes chocolate ect

I’m due my uusaly blood checks but not sure when and slightly. Worried they’ll be elevated

I intend on starting carnivore tomorrow(Monday), I only do 2 meals a day without snacking

Iv read I need to balance protein and fat, in what averages?

I read that I should just eat till I’m satisfied, but how do I work out the nacros?

Do I need to cook infat or limit or how does it work

Mushrooms? Allowed or not?

I use single cream instead of milk, is. Something better?

I know no veggies, but what about mushrooms?

Will this affect my diabetes?

I know my body can turn protein into glucose but, does eating meat Spike blood sugars?

Will I pile on more weight?

Does this woe help with insulin resistance

What side affects should I expect?

Anything u guys recommend for a comple newbie

Sorry that this is a long post

CRaig

#2

Carnivore is eating animal products. Mushrooms are as much out as plants. Animal kingdom + maybe some spice that is not strictly carnivore but still great for many of us (well I actually can handle tiny plants/mushrooms very well too, I usually do carnivore-ish on my stricter days, just rarely true carnivore but my normal plan is to be as close as comfortably possible. it’s a different world from normal keto to me even not being 100%. but if you can, do it very clean and pure so nothing can interfere. and anyway, why to eat unneeded stuff if you can avoid that?).

Many of us don’t care much about macros. I don’t want to eat a ton but that’s it, the amount of protein and fat doesn’t seem important to me as long as I feel fine… My fat/protein ratio is between 0.5 and 2.0 (typically a bit above 1.0 though), it works fine. My energy intake wildly varies too, life is like that, I don’t even understand how people stick to macros… :smiley:
Of course it’s possible that our taste or our body requires us to have a more fixed ratio or grams but it can change. I ate way more fat now than in the beginning. First I had nausea if I ate fatty then I liked my usual 65% fat, almost all my dishes were there, of course I ended up with that. Now I eat much more and prefer more fat anyway so I am above 70%, somewhere, I can’t track eating fatty meat as I have no idea about the fat content.
So try various things and find your sweet spot. Maybe you need more protein to feel right and satiated. Maybe you can’t even handle much fat. Maybe you like leaner meat and added fat just doesn’t work for you (it doesn’t for me, the vast majority of the fat I eat is in my protein sources, mostly meat and eggs though it depends on my dishes to some extent, of course)…

You need enough protein (and maybe not too much but most of us can’t eat too much. I eat more than needed but never felt a problem. some people do) and well, it doesn’t really work without a significant amount of fat but that’s it, there are no more rules about it. I am extremely wild with this, I don’t care if I eat 80g or 260g fat as long as I eat properly for my actual day… I want the average to be right for me but I eat when hungry, no matter what my very unreliable and now fortunately very occasional tracking says.

You can cook with fat, sure. I like to keep my added fat at zero but even I can’t do that every day. It’s individual.

Gluconeogenesis is demand driven, your body makes the glucose it needs but eating lots of meat won’t flood your body with unnecessarily glucose. I definitely never experienced anything unusual on my days when I ate about 2 times as much protein I may need… But if I eat a bit more carbs, I subtly feel that - often even if I am still in ketosis. Even if I eat a significant amount of carbs from my eggs and organ meat, it feels just like my days below 5g carbs. I don’t measure things, I have no tools for it but my body reacts well if I feed it well, it immediately tells me if it has problems with something I do and it’s enough for me.

The real carnivores surely will write useful things later :slight_smile:
But our experiences are unique to some extent. Some people has hardships, others just get benefits right away but obviously it matters how you ate previously, how healthy you are… I do this carb lowering thing gradually, several years low-carb then years on/off keto and then carnivore trials here and there… It was cool, no problem except the nearly inevitable hardships coming with a drastically new woe but that wasn’t bad either. Sometimes I was confused or surprised or bored with most of my food… But my body LOVES extremely low-carb, it solved almost all the problems related to food keto couldn’t. So I am quite enthusiastic but know it’s not for everyone, not even the relaxed something that I do.

Good luck!

And don’t try to stay below 1500 kcal or 2000 or whatever unless you are very sure about it, you feel right and you trust your metabolism will be okay…? Maybe your extra fat can help enough to pull it off, I saw such cases but people lost fat like quickly there… Okay I don’t know enough about this but
if you feel the need for more food, definitely eat more food!

(bulkbiker) #3

Why do you think that?

Excellent you’ll be fine then

Forget macros eat meat until full then stop. Fat and protein ratios will work themselves out over time.

I do … many don’t up to you…they’re not veg and are pretty low carb so…

Double cream always

Yep it will go away entirely

Old fashioned bollocks so no… demand driven process only.

Unlikely

Kills it off completely

You might get the runs r a bit constipated (but that might be just going a lot less) diff strokes for diff folks

If you really want to go extreme try beef and water only for 30 days!

(Craig Lloyd) #4

Thank you for your reply, I am curious, how do you know your above 70% fat if u don’t add fat while Cooking or track?

Also could I ask what meals u have?

I feel my metabolism is broken tbf

Also what exercise do u do.? I work from 7 till 6 Monday to Friday and am tired when I finish but I am in a jcb all day

I believe my body doesn’t handle carbs very well

(Craig Lloyd) #5

Because iv increased my veg intake, as per instruction from a dietician specialist but whenever I test my blood, its between the 6-8 ranges instead of the 5-6 ranges

OK I will switch to double cream

That’ll be amazing to be completely normal sugars

I’m constipated most days anyways, the runs would be a nice addition lol

I don’t think I can do that extreme to begin with

Can I ask what sort of meals u have? How u figure them out! I am mainly after meals that I can have cold at work tho

(Laurie) #6

There are many keto/carnivore foods you can take to work and eat cold. If you are a beef-only carnivore you will be somewhat limited. I’ll list here beef and other carni foods. You can take just one item each day, or a variety.

Sliced roast beef or roast pork
Chicken legs
Deli meats (read the label)

Smoked salmon
Shrimp
Cheese

Boiled eggs
Ham/bacon quiche (crustless)
Tamagoyaki (rolled omelet)

Canned corned beef
Canned salmon
Canned sardines

(Craig Lloyd) #7

Thank you, d day tomorrow am somewhat nervous ha

When should I see any changes or anything?

(bulkbiker) #8

I tend to eat twice a day … mid afternoon and dinner at 7 pm
The first meal is smaller usually cold meats of some kind then the main is hot.

My sugars are usually between 4.5 and 6 mmol/l all the time.

Recent HbA1c’s between 27 and 29 mmol/m (I was diagnosed in 2015 with an HbA1c of 87 mmol/m)

I usually go between 300 and 500g of meat (more if chicken less if beef) often a steak rump, sirloin, t-bone are my go to meals. Leg of lamb pork belly or chops.
Usually cook on the barbecue (gas grill to our US friends) all year round.

#9

HI…come on over to the carnivore support thread…called Meat Mayham
but we are starting a new thread June 1, it will be called Full Blune Carnivore June.

All good info on the board but a few things for newbies.

do not eat mushrooms. they are plants…they are not animals so ditch them now, not worth even playing with them LOL

eat any time…do not limit to 2 times per day since you are new…new people should eat as much as they want, as much as they need, any time they need it…do not put any time frame on your food intake…all this will come naturally to you…but since you are keto you are probably used to eating certain times and you might fall into 2 meals per day but if you are hungry, at any time, EAT and never think twice about it.

a few spices if you want…most ditch them but some keep a bit of taste but that is a personal decision.

I would not do cream/any dairy when you start…drop it for a week or so and just eat meat and seafood, fish or fowl…dump cream and cheese for a week or so to let your body start to change and adapt over…then add back in a little cream and cheese *dairy etc. and see if you do well on it.

We got alot of good carnivores on this board…search our thread out and come visit, we can get you started :slight_smile:\


on facebook

this is the UK Carnivore site…nice people on it and if you need more support jump over and chat! wishing you the best!

(Craig Lloyd) #10

I’m already on that group, I don’t use Facebook as much as I used to, but will post a quick hello now so u can see who I am

Thank you for your reply,

#11

cool
yea come into our carnivore group here :slight_smile: we would love to help you and give support!

#12

I did track for a long while, still doing it occasionally and I eat similarly fatty food all the time, this should be enough… And considering my lowest-fat items (except some egg whites) are around 65%… And the highest ones are 85-100%… I must be above 70. Whenever I track, it’s over that lately. Especially on my pork shoulders roast days - even though I can’t possibly know the fat content of that.

My typical meals: eggs in zillion different forms (including meat in it), pork roasts, fried organ meat (typically chicken liver or pig heart. yeah, these are low-fat but I don’t eat much of these and automatically balance it out with very fatty items on the same day. it’s instinctive), soup from some fowl… Sometimes beef stew (not carnivore but close enough for me). I eat very little fish, sometimes tuna deviled eggs.
It has enough variety for me.

I mostly just walk almost every day (just a bit, maybe 5 km but I am quick and there is elevation), I cycle a bit sometimes and I do weightlifting too, with my baby weights but I can only lift those at this point… I try to run but I don’t like it much, I am bad at it so it very rarely happens. But I should do that too, cardio does good and I get just a little cardio from my cycling uphill… Exercise is important for my health and energy level. And probably for my fat-loss too as I eat much even on carnivore and I never lose fat that way.
I am at home but I walked WAY more when I worked in an office. I walked 2-3 hours a day to and from work in the last years but that was nothing to me (except when I wasn’t used to elevation yet but I got used to it quickly) so I often hiked 30-40km in the weekends in the nearby mountains. (I kept getting fattier back then as I ate carbs and they made me hungry.) I needed it as I worked in front of a computer all day and when I went home, I played on my computer for more hours…

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

For historical reasons, percentages of food are always calculated as percentages of calories. So equal amounts of protein and fat by weight work out to 31% protein and 69% fat by calories. This is because protein contains approximately 4 calories per gram and fat contains an average of 9 calories per gram.

#14

Mushrooms aren’t plants, they are mushrooms. They have their own kingdom. (They may be used together with vegs in the kitchen, that’s another thing, that’s why many fruits are vegetables at the same time.)
But they are outside of the animal kingdom so they aren’t carnivore. Spices and condiments are often tolerated but they aren’t carnivore items, of course (unless there are animal spices and condiments…).

I don’t understand the “not veg” thing, carnivore isn’t about not eating vegs, it’s about not eating not animal products (and milk isn’t a good idea either unless in super tiny amounts if it’s good for someone, I see no point, cream is better. btw I never eat double cream as we don’t have that in this country).
But we all can choose our own items and being close to carnivore may work well. But it can be a slippery slope. I played a lot with adding harmless enough things and a part of me just loves to take one step to the other, find the limit and step over it… So don’t add stuff just because you probably can handle it well and it’s nice and is there. Unless you are better at it than me. But if a tiny extra helps and without it it’s a miserable existence and you will fail, add the little thing but be open to skip it in the future. I do my best to be as strict as comfortably possible and time (and great food) helps :smiley:

#15

a mushroom is a fungus species PLANT…never a critter so yea they are ‘seen in this whole wide world’ when speaking eating them as a ‘veggie’ actually.

To everyone who wants a real carnivore experience: NO MUSHRROMS on carnivore is a very simple fact to state and I don’t care how ya cut it, what species ya define it as or what the whole BS of life on carnivore is to keep a darn mushroom in one’s meal…they are not on the carnivore plan or will ever be! So this mushroom BS is over in carnivore land plan truly HAHA

@Shinita
you said: I do my best to be as strict as comfortably possible and time (and great food) helps

If not all in carnivore then one won’t ever get carnivore results. It is that smple but at all times great meat, seafood, fish or fowl is key. We must eat enough of that to function on this lifestyle…when we don’t get enough of it we waiver and go a bit down maybe…so to everyone on carnivore…FREAKIN’ EAT THE MEAT! All you need to change and adapt and thrive and grow.

Can’t stress that enough! It is the key to the plan when newer, eat and eat SO well and then we change to ‘us’ as we heal and our food appetites change up and all ‘falls into a natural life balance’ for our personal bodies.

OK this was kinda a carnivore PSA

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #16

Technically, fungi belong neither to the kingdom of Plantae nor to the kingdom of Animalia but belong to a separate kingdom, Fungi. But the point remains, of course, that they are not animal foods and therefore not part of a fully carnivore diet.

#17

thanks for your wise precise chat on that.

from the net: However, in terms of nutrition, the U.S. Department of Agriculture considers mushrooms to be vegetables because they provide many of the same nutritional attributes of vegetables.

it is obvy these ARE considered veg by 99.99999% of the world LOL!

those carnivores that pretend a mushroom is OK on an animal based meal plan are only pretending cause they want the darn things…AND I HAVE TO say that mushrooms are the, like truly 1 thing that carnivores can still ingest without issues!!! So that gray area comes in and I can eat them and feel fine BUT IF ONE truly reads up on science on what they are, how they carry toxins etc and how they truly can effect a ‘carnivore body’ inside, not the I do fine on them all the time mess, then one learns more why a carnivore never wants them in their life.

great chat on it tho!!!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #18

True, and it’s also true of tomatoes, peas, beans, gourds, and other plant fruits that are not sweet. (Commercially speaking, “fruits” tend to grow on trees and contain a lot of sugar, but botanically, any part of a plant that contains seeds is a fruit.)

#19

yea how ‘we humans’ label and pretend’ is a gross illusion in the food world for what ‘it takes per individual’ to succeed.

be you, eat you and know you and if you want XYZ then learn real truths on a plan one wants. not any bit more simple than that to me

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #20

I’ve been curious about this for quite a while and now is as good and relevant a chance as any to ask. Take myself as an example: male; 145 pounds; 6’0" height; overall lean, not bulging pecs or biceps, but not just skin and bones - BF 14-15%; age 76 years. In maintenance 4 1/2 years, weight and body comp have not varied by more than +/- couple pounds and +/- a percent during that time. In ketosis a minimum of 99% of that time. I also have a nominally full-time job at Walmart that consumes 30-35 hours per week, usually but not always closer to 30. The job requires lots of walking, standing (sitting on the sales floor is not permitted) and lifting modest weights (stacks of shopping baskets usually) and sometimes heavier stuff (like a ~50lb box of plastic bags).

I use the formula 2.28 g/kg of total body weight to estimate my required/desired protein intake. This is based loosely on Bikman’s recommendation and is at the high end of it. This calculates to 150 grams of protein. So, at equal weights of protein and fat…

150 grams protein = 600kcal
150 grams fat = 1350 kcal
total kcal intake: 600 + 1350 = 1950 kcal

Carbs are generally not zero, but always sub-15 grams, usually around 10 grams and frequently less. So I’m ignoring those 40 approx kcal for this exercise. Even if I included them, the total kcals per day would be under 2000.

I currently eat within a ‘window’ of 2400 - 2700 kcals per day. This generally split into 3 meals. The timing varies a lot because of my quite variable work schedule. From experience I know that if I eat at or below the low end of that window I will lose weight. Staying within that maintenance window requires that I eat to a minimum of 200 grams of fat. I’m actually eating 220 grams at a macro ratio of 1.48:1 fat:protein grams.

I realize, of course, that a recommendation of 1:1 fat:protein(+carbs) is just a simplified generalization to get you into the ball park. Individual variation, metabolic rate and eating adjustments follow to suit. Also, I’m not trying to lose weight, but maintain it, so even if 1:1 leads to a small daily deficit, I guess it would work OK for all those who do want to lose it, although for me problematic.

I also realize that many folks poo poo calculating macros and calories. And I agree that they should not be calculated in an arbitrary fashion. Just because you read an article somewhere that said you have to eat a 500 kcal deficit per day to lose weight, is not a good reason to do so. My numbers are based on trial and error and I change them from time to time in response to changing circumstances. For example, I ate less before I got my job at Walmart. As an aside, when I eat a 250 gram block of cream cheese as part of my lunch at work, I get occasional dumbfounded stares!

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. :innocent: