Protein-rich Diet (Liver Shrinking Diet) vs PSMF

[akirby83]

The reason is that too much protein stimulates the mTOR pathway, thus inhibiting ketone production, autophagy, and mitophagy, while stimulating the production of IGF and cancer growth.

mTOR is certainly a boogeyman to people like Rosedale, but I am thinking mTOR is a lot like insulin. Being released in your body by certain processes is not a problem in and of itself, but you want it pulsatile not chronically high.

[cwstnsko]

When I was younger, most people just died of natural causes, presumably old age, but I think we have gotten much less accepting of this, so we seek to find something to blame, even at 80+ years of age.

If I live the active, adventurous life I hope to after I retire, maybe the likelihood of dying in an accident will be increased?

Maybe the 40 years I spent eating a SAD diet, or trying to be healthier with HCLF has already set in motion some malady that no amount of true healthy eating can overcome

Just out of curiosity I looked up Jack LaLanne’s cause of death and it appears he died of pneumonia after refusing to go to a doctor, but he was still doing his workout the day before he died at 96.

[akirby83]

Goals

a) Age well - Not become feeble, Injury and pain free, Maintain Flexibility and range of motion

b) Health - Absence of chronic disease - Diabetes, Hypertension - No need for prescription medications

c) Ability to Perform (work and recreation) - Strength - Core, Upper Body - Stamina

Your goals are the same as mine. Basically I want to be a healthy strong AF old dude and then die rapidly of some thing when it’s my time to go. Whether I could eke out an extra 5 years from calorie and protein restriction is of no concern for me.

[Baytowvin]

Phinney and Fung would be another example.

YES!!! I would love to see them have a discussion

[Rian]

The context here is that a PSMF is a crash diet, no reason to sugar coat that fact. It is aimed at rapid fat loss over a short period of time. Nobody here, or at least I’m not, is talking about anything above moderate levels of protein for a lifetime but rather for a few months or less as a means to lose fat rapidly.

The idea that I’ve been struggling with on my keto journey is this:

“There is ample evidence that protein drives hunger more than anything, especially once carbs are out of the equation. Therefore when still hungry on keto why would it make sense to eat fat to satiety when more protein is what my body wants? Why do we not say “fat in moderation and protein to satiety?”. That is still quite ketogenic from my experience.”

I’m giving this PSMF a try starting this week, I’ll see how it goes. Drowning everything in butter and oil for the last few years got me really spoiled.

[PaulL]

Why do we not say “fat in moderation and protein to satiety?”

Just a guess, but perhaps for two reasons: (a) protein intake does stimulate insulin production far more than fat does, though not as much as carbohydrate does; and (b) too much protein can be toxic, whereas there doesn’t really seem to be a toxic level of fat intake.

[Explorer]

Paul,
Does it go without saying that an elevation of insulin means that too much protien knock you out of ketosis?

[Bellyman]

Just a guess, but perhaps for two reasons: (a) protein intake does stimulate insulin production far more than fat does, though not as much as carbohydrate does; and (b) too much protein can be toxic, whereas there doesn’t really seem to be a toxic level of fat intake.

It’s an interesting discussion. And I suppose in a laboratory or in very messed up people, huge swings in the macros can happen. But for me, I cannot imagine actually eating enough protein to be at toxic levels. I have a hard enough time getting to what I think is probably closer to the optimum level for me, I typically fall short when eating protein to satiety. Fat is also something I can’t imagine OD’ing on, if there is even such a thing. I don’t get too far into a pile of fat bombs before I do not want any more fat, even if I still feel “hungry” (unsatisfied might be a better word).

I guess what I’m kinda thinking is the difference between: a) low carb, moderate protein and fat to sateity, and b) low carb, moderate fat and protein to sateity, may not be as different as it sounds on paper when normal people start eating real food. (I could be wrong.) For how many might such a thing be nearly the equivalent of being able to easily down six eggs and yet balk at having to eat a half dozen?

[Rian]

For how many might such a thing be nearly the equivalent of being able to easily down six eggs and yet balk at having to eat a half dozen?

I see what you did there lol

[gingogenic]

I’ve done a PSMF several times. Once for 10 weeks.

I was constantly starving, cold, my nails peeled, my hair fell out. Yes, some weight came off, but it came back within a few months, despite constant caloric restriction and several hours of exercise per day afterwards.

I am still trying to repair my metabolism, 2 years later. I believe that I probably had metabolic issues before I started the PSMF-ing and that they worsened my issues.

If I had done the PSMF before bariatric surgery, that probably wouldn’t have been as much of problem, because bariatric surgery addresses weight loss in a number of ways that standard CICO doesn’t.

PSMF works really well for some people without metabolic issues, especially for those who already have quite low body fat, but want to get even leaner or for those on some crazy tight schedule. But there seems to be so many potential ways that it could be detrimental to those with metabolic derangement.

[akirby83]

Here’s what I’m wondering, what is the benefit of PSMF over a plain old fast? Why not just fast? I get the benefits for a bodybuilder where you don’t want to risk breaking down muscle, not sure that matters as much for a normal person.

[gingogenic]

At the time I did PSMF is was based on having read Lyle Mcdonald and thinking this was the safest way for me to lose weight (when nothing else was working). Losing LBM for me was a serious concern and Lyle presented a good argument for how PSMF would prevent that. I’d done low carb on and off for many years at that point, and had got nowhere in the previous 4 years, so it was a decision made in desperation. A bad decision.

[Rian]

Here’s what I’m wondering, what is the benefit of PSMF over a plain old fast?

It’s a fair question. The big difference I can think of off the top of my head:

• A PSMF is nutritionally complete and may therefore be more sustainable over a longer period of time.

I start fading pretty quickly after about day 6 of a water fast, I’m hoping that doesn’t happen on PSMF but I won’t know for a week.

[Rian]

I was constantly starving, cold, my nails peeled, my hair fell out. Yes, some weight came off, but it came back within a few months, despite constant caloric restriction and several hours of exercise per day afterwards.

I have a couple questions just out of curiosity:

• Were you fat adapted when you began PSMF?
• Did you supplement with EFA’s, vitamins, and minerals?
• What did your diet look like afterwards? Was it keto?

[Rian]

I cannot imagine actually eating enough protein to be at toxic levels.

In a person with healthy kidneys the idea of toxic levels of protein seems to be a myth. The evidence just isn’t there to support the idea of protein toxicity in a person with healthy renal function doing a PSMF.

Fat is also something I can’t imagine OD’ing on, if there is even such a thing. I don’t get too far into a pile of fat bombs before I do not want any more fat, even if I still feel “hungry” (unsatisfied might be a better word).

I don’t think a “fat OD” is a thing either although I get very different signals from my body when I eat fat to satiety vs protein to satiety. With fat to satiety I am almost borderline nauseous, especially if I go a little too far. With protein I just feel really damn full with no interest in eating anything else period.

I have a hard enough time getting to what I think is probably closer to the optimum level for me, I typically fall short when eating protein to satiety.

How did you determine your optimum level? I’ve experimented with this for a long time but never found a number I thought felt 100% right. That’s part of the reason I’ve been more interested in the idea of protein to satiety as opposed to a number I get from a calculator. It’s crazy to me the wide range of recommended protein intake levels I see in various places.

[Bellyman]

How did you determine your optimum level?

I probably shouldn’t have used the word “optimum”. So far, I don’t think I’ve ever approached the upper end of what would be normal consumption of protein.

I spent a lot of years as a vegetarian and quite a few as a vegan. Just from habit and being accustomed to certain foods, the veggies, including the non-starchy veggies, are very easy for me to consume as they’ve been a part of my diet from the very beginning. It’s quite easy for me to eat so many of those that I feel physically full before I’ve ever eaten any sizable amount of protein at all. If left to my own and eating without any thought, it wouldn’t be unusual for me to eat from about 25g to maybe 40g of protein a day. And as a person with a LBM of somewhere around 75Kg, an average of 32.5g of protein a day is really pretty low, I think, too low.

I have noticed that when I don’t eat what seems to be enough protein, I get tired more easily, I don’t feel as well, and my weight loss stalls. When I purposefully and mindfully bump up the protein, I feel better, I have more energy, and I’m generally more satiated between meals.

That is telling me that when I eat more protein, it’s better than when I don’t eat enough. So “optimum” really wasn’t the best word to use. Like I said, though, I would have a very hard time eating enough to overeat protein. Some of that might even be psychological. (?)

[PaulL]

Does it go without saying that an elevation of insulin means that too much protien knock you out of ketosis?

The lectures I’ve watched and the articles I’ve read suggest that protein stimulates insulin secretion at about half the rate at which carbohydrate does. But the ketogenic way of eating takes this into account, because we have to have at least some protein. There are protein deficiency diseases, and there are certain amino acids that the body nust have but can’t manufacture .

In a person with healthy kidneys the idea of toxic levels of protein seems to be a myth. The evidence just isn’t there to support the idea of protein toxicity in a person with healthy renal function doing a PSMF.

@richard has calculated that 3.0 g/kg is the level of intake at which people are going to have trouble with toxic ammonia buildup. That is, I grant you, a lot of protein.

[Daisy]

I guess what I’m kinda thinking is the difference between: a) low carb, moderate protein and fat to sateity, and b) low carb, moderate fat and protein to sateity, may not be as different as it sounds on paper when normal people start eating real food. (I could be wrong.) For how many might such a thing be nearly the equivalent of being able to easily down six eggs and yet balk at having to eat a half dozen?

Yes, I think more often than not people are talking about pretty well the same thing when they argue for 10 hours straight!

I was constantly starving, cold, my nails peeled, my hair fell out. Yes, some weight came off, but it came back within a few months, despite constant caloric restriction and several hours of exercise per day afterwards.

Yes. I would argue that any extreme diet has similar consequences. It seems productive while you are losing weight but what is the point when you regain it all when you stop? It is not a way of eating that you can maintain so you will always regain at some point. And what damage do you do to your body in the process - that is what concerns me.

[brownfat]

I’m fascinated by this concept, the science is there and it passes the sniff test. To me, eat all the fat you want and still lose weight has never really passed the sniff test.

A PSMF like any fast should produce faster weight loss than a more typical high fat keto diet. The goal of the high fat keto diet is low effort sustainable weight loss as an obesity avoiding lifestyle. The PSMF is a high effort approach intended for faster loss, especially when going for extreme levels of leanness.

I’ve been toying with this approach for a day or two at a time to force a little weight loss when stalled out on a more typical keto approach. Previously I was doing true fasting or fat fasting, but dexa scans showed I was losing significant lean tissue and while I still have a lot of fat to lose preserving/gaining muscle is more important to me than maximizing rate of weight loss. I’ve got another dexa scan coming in a couple weeks which will help me decide my future balance of fat vs protein fasting.

[Daisy]

I’m fascinated by this concept, the science is there and it passes the sniff test. To me, eat all the fat you want and still lose weight has never really passed the sniff test.

I do think this is a slight but important distinction. There is a difference between eating fat “to satiety” and eating “all the fat you want”. If you have no emotional attachment and disordered eating tendencies then eating fat to satiety will work great. If you do, and “eating all the fat you want” smacks of that, then you will run into problems.

I have emotional attachments and disordered eating tendencies so that is said with no judgement whatsoever.