Protein-rich Diet (Liver Shrinking Diet) vs PSMF



Everyone makes this choice obviously, the question is about who is right or at the very least on the right track. We can have the tedious N=1 roundy-round all day but the reality is we have more in common than not. We are all here because similar types of foods did things to our bodies that were problematic (read: most carbs are bad). But then we pretend like there are 300 different ways to reverse the damage which has the same root cause. That has never added up in my assessment. I understand the idea of N=1 but we should not pretend like we don’t all have more or less the same basic human physiological needs at the end of the day.

(bulkbiker) #42

But surely that leads us back to 20g or less of carbs moderate protein and fat to satiety…sound familiar?
Broad strokes that we can tweak to our own bodies.
I know that overdo my protein every single day but I seem fine on it so don’t sweat it. Weigh tloss has been stalled for about 6 months but I’m very happy to be over 100 pounds lower than I used to be with Type 2 in “remission”. What’s not to like?


Nothing not to like about this guy xxx


I used to love the fact that my clothes were baggy. Obviously there are practical issues with trousers - get a belt! Enjoy shopping for new clothes though - it’s a good feeling to enjoy trying things on for a change isn’t it? I like the fact that I can actually just use regular shops now and not the plus size ones only. Boy, I used to hate clothes shopping.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #45

I still hate clothes shopping, but that’s just me. And I have to tell you, if I have to do it, I’d rather be shopping for smaller sizes than larger ones, lol! :bacon:

(G. Andrew Duthie) #46

We should also not pretend that there aren’t potential differences that matter. Nor should we pretend that we fully understand human physiology. It’s that kind of hubris that got us (collectively) into this mess in the first place. There is plenty left that we do not understand.


To me the point of the forum is to find the similarities we might have not constantly hash over the possible differences. You keep talking about people who have insulin so high they cannot use their own body fat for fuel. Care to hazard a guess as to what percentage of this forum falls into that category? Maybe 10% would be my guess. That discussion is getting us nowhere.


How can the needs of a young active male be the same as those of a middle aged woman? Women’s needs change on a cyclical basis whereas men’s are pretty well the same day in day out. So many dietary and medical recommendations and guidelines are based on studies done on middle aged men. You should read Nina Teicholz’s book if you haven’t already - there have been some shockers over the years. Guidelines based on dubious studies performed on middle aged men are extrapolated out to offer guidelines for everyone, women and children alike - often with damaging results, notably for the women and children. We are not all the same which is why there can be no black and white ‘works for all’ advice.

(Adam Kirby) #49

Fat loss can always be achieved, the question is at what cost. Hell, look at the biggest loser, that’s some really powerful fat loss there. Is it worth doing? Fuck no. It’s unsustainable and does more harm than good. A hypocaloric protein diet is, at the end of the day, a hypocaloric diet. Is it a tool? Yep. It’s a great thing to get a bodybuilder in contest shape or a fitness model ready for a shoot. Does it make sense for most people? Probably not.

I guess my view in this subject is, people can spend decades piling on fat. Can you fix it fast? Maybe, but it’s gonna cost you.

(TJ Borden) #50

I resent that @Daisy. Men are complicated too. We need bacon, boobies…okay, I guess you’re right. :smile:

  • Oxygen
  • Water
  • Protein
  • EFA’s
  • Vitamins and minerals

Wait, you didn’t mean that literally?


Why oh why isn’t there a laughing button like on FB? :smiley:


I meant it in the context of this topic.


@akirby83 Yes! I finally upped my fat significantly and lowered protein somewhat, Incorporated fasting and now I’m seeing some movement on the scales. I think I’m still struggling with high insulin levels which made it difficult to be lower in fat. As a person who always struggled with extra weight, even from childhood, high insulin is clearly a problem for me.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #55

Just watched a lecture by Dr. Rosedale about insulin, leptin, mTOR, and aging, in which he suggests that people nearing the end of their reproductive years (starting, say at age 35 or 40), benefit greatly from restricting protein, though not calories. He advises keeping protein to around 0.65 g/kg of LBM (and of course keeping carbohydrate as low as possible as well), and ramping up the fat. The reason is that too much protein stimulates the mTOR pathway, thus inhibiting ketone production, autophagy, and mitophagy, while stimulating the production of IGF and cancer growth.

(Brian) #56

That’s funny. I just watched another video from a link posted in another thread that said a person is not as able to use protein as well as they age and need more as they age to make up for their slowing ability to utilize it.

I’m not arguing, only suggesting that maybe where one person is better off reducing, another may be better of increasing.

Ain’t nothin’ easy… :confused:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #57

Just watched the same video last night—Dr. Bikman at Low-Carb Breckenridge 2018. I’d love to get all these guys in one room and then be the fly on the wall, listening to the discussion! :bacon:

(Chris W) #58

Quite often the difference comes down to whether you want to optimize Lifespan or Healthspan. To put it differently, Is your focus on Quantity of Life, or Quality of Life?

I recently thought about and wrote down a set of goals to share with the trainers at a fitness center when I started.

  1. Goals
    a) Age well - Not become feeble, Injury and pain free, Maintain Flexibility and range of motion
    b) Health - Absence of chronic disease - Diabetes, Hypertension - No need for prescription medications
    c) Ability to Perform (work and recreation) - Strength - Core, Upper Body - Stamina

I purposefully did not reference longevity or weight in my goals.

To support these goals as my priority, I lean toward the higher end of the protein recommendations. If I were more concerned about living forever, I would likely eat less protein and less calories, and let go of a few of the goals.

(Brian) #59

It is interesting. Phinney and Fung would be another example.

One thing I appreciated about Dr. Bikman’s thoughts on protein was the idea that context mattered. I suspect context is probably more important than we often give it credit for since a lot of us are on the same page with keto/low carb eating. And yet, we do have quite a variety of places from which just our forum members are coming from… young male bodybuilders, older ladies, heavy meat eaters, vegans, meat n potatoes 'Mericans, or Asian types that would be gravitating towards vastly different foods. Different lifestyles. Different genetic makeups. Context…

(Brian) #60

That’s an interesting thought. In a round-about way, it comes back to a topic I started some time back, “What do people who eat a healthy keto diet eventually die of?” If you’re aging well, you’re not plagued with chronic disease, you’re not on a bunch of meds and you’re strong, just what do you plan to die of earlier than if you’d had different goals?