Protein? How much

(Richard Morris) #1

So I did this presentation at Low Carb thredbo last year and they asked me to present it again at low carb Gold Coast.

The funny thing is that Pete (the videographer) told me the link was going up and within about 5 mins of it being up already there were 6 downvotes … so there are some people who either can listen to a 35 min youtube presentation in 5 mins … or just people who don’t want to be told by a Ketodude how much protein humans should eat no matter what he says. And THAT was the whole point of my presentation.

(Todd Allen) #2

Well done, thanks!

#3

:+1: :clap:t2: :grinning:!

(Karen) #4

Watched it. Know i can get lots of protein. Easier to eat that way, but was wondering about Dr. Rosedale’s thoughts on protein. So would lower end protein look like fasting?? Would older body protein structure get catabolized?? @richard

K

(Richard Morris) #5

Somewhere on the planet there is a weirdo who gets the correct amount of protein on 0.3g/kg. I suspect this person may be obese and fasting - they would be tearing down old protein structures and filling their labile pool with the raw materials to make new proteins, but they would be driving their bodies on stored body fat and defraying their need to make glucose from the glycerol liberated as they break down fat to use. They will still need some protein supplemented but they can get buy on a lot less.

And somewhere out there are at least 2 people who need 1.0g/kg and I suspect they are lean and ketogenic. They would be making glucose from protein, but have not enough fat for glycerol to supplement that, and they may not have enough body fat to supply energy and having to eat all the time or waste body protein for energy.

I enjoyed Ron Rosedales presentation from Vale. He thinks 0.6 is about right. That is very close to halfway between 0.3 and 1.0. Actually the average in THAT population tested was 0.54g/kg so 0.6 would be adequate for more than half that population.

It’s not exactly fasting to chronically under eat protein. Fasting switches the body into a state that spares protein to some degree. Feeding switches that off and preps the body for new protein to make things with. So feeding on not enough is like the worst of cases, your demands will be high because you are switching to a fed state, your delivery will be low because you are under-eating protein.

But I think unless you know exactly what your amount is (by doing bookend DEXA scans and low balling protein) your best bet is to aim at a minimum for the highest known amount required … which is 1.0g/kg. You know that if you are represented by that population well then you should be at least getting enough.

I have no problem with people deciding that they want to maximize protein. That cutoff (unless you have an inborn error of metabolism) is around 3.3g/kg. If you can eat all the protein and your gluocse is still under control, and you are making ketones (so you can make less glucose), and your weight is under control then I say go for it.

(Liz ) #6

Are your protein amounts stated here per k of body weight or per k of lean body mass?

(Karen) #7

What she said… I don’t know my LBM I’m thinking I’ m just a fat ball.

K

(Neil Upton) #8

Richard
Really enjoyed your lecture however
when you refer to protein intake as mg/kilo what does that refer to. Is it say mg of beef or the dry weight of the protein in the beef. If it is dry weight where can one find a helpful chart as is available for net carbs
Neilu

(Richard Morris) #9

Protein as the nutrient, not protein as the generic term for a meal component that contains the nutrient.

So let’s say a t-bone steak, it’s roughly 22% protein according to the USDA, but you can probably see the nutrient panel on the package if you bought the meat from a super market.

https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3773?manu=&fgcd=&ds=Standard%20Reference

Let’s say your raw steak was 300g, you’d have 66g of protein.

Let’s say you are 58kgs with roughly 25% body fat, your lean mass is roughly 44kgs.

So let’s say you are following Carl and I, you’d be aiming for 1-1.5g/kg. That would be 44-66g a day, in other words a 200-300g T-bone steak is your daily range or roughly half a pound.

Let’s say you want to max out your protein to get abdominal muscles like Ted Naiman or whatever it is that a high protein diet is supposed to do for you then your maximum is 3.3g/kg x 44kg = 145g/day or roughly 660g of that raw T-bone steak or about a pound and a half.

Macros - am I supposed to hit all numbers?
(Todd Allen) #10

I’d add that if one is shooting for a moderate level they are probably going to be fine focusing on the steaks and other sources of concentrated protein. But if one wants to surf the outer limit around 3.3 g/kg they should take into consideration other sources and not just the meats, eggs and dairy. Nuts and seeds can contribute a lot. Even vegetables such as spinach can add up especially if one eats a lot of them.

(Neil Upton) #11

Thanks Richard means I don’t have to scrimp on the proteins
Regards
Neil

(Richard Morris) #12

Yeah that’s exactly right. We’re actually pretty good at accurately dosing ourselves for protein needs. The amount that most of us are eating is probably about right, unless we are calorie restricting and then the body can panic and overdrive the hunger signal … then we can sometimes eat too much.

(Katerina) #13

Hi Richard,
I live in Canberra too.
Are there any groups that meet up in Canberra.
Cheers Katerina

(Mark) #14

Always Lean Body Mass - there is no protein maintenance requirement for fat. :slight_smile:

(Liz ) #15

Yes thank you, I actually know the answer. I just think it should always be made clear as some folks don’t know. And others calculate based on current total body weight for whatever reason.

(Mark) #16

Yes - I agree - they don’t always make it clear, but any protein calculations based on body weight would be inaccurate.

(Kate) #17

I really enjoyed your talk and I must say a) I was quite excited to see you giving a lecture because I always enjoy it when you hit us with the science and b) loved the topic because I have been experimenting a bit with my own protein levels a bit higher than what I have in the past recently with some success.

For me though when deep in ketosis I have that cut of point with protein. It is like the satiety switch flips and once it happens I can be mid bite and have to spit it out because I can literally not eat anymore of the meat I was eating. My family laugh at me sometimes because they see that ‘Im done’ moment.

(Richard Morris) #18

:slight_smile:

I suspect some of the reported satiety advantages for protein are confounded by ammonia toxicity signalling. It would makes sense from an evolutionary perspective if we had an emergency cut off signal that kicks in when eating more protein if we are having trouble removing the waste products of the last meal. It would also make sense that that was a more urgent signally than opportunistic energy seeking (ie: if there is food available then eat it now cos you don’t know when the next food will be found).

(Richard Morris) #19

Represent :slight_smile:

We had a dinner once at Ishai Sahi’s place which was fun. But no other regular groups that I know of.

(Kate) #20

Just with recent experience from reversing insulin resistance before pregnancy, being insulin resistant again during (keto & type 2 diabetic pregnancy) and then now have the lowest insulin levels I have had in years (4 mU/L now as opposed to 87 mU/L when diagnosed as a type 2) protein did really factor in to my blood sugar control when pregnant/insulin resistant as much as carbs did. Especially for the fasting blood sugars. I had to keep it at roughly 1.5 g/kg lean body mass otherwise it would spike. Not that much but enough to open a can of worms that resulted in having to argue with the hospital diabetes educator to stay off insulin at least twice if it was 0.1 above the strict target fasting blood sugar range the hospital had (4.4-5.3 mmol/L). You would think with increased blood volune and kidney function more would be able to be eaten but I found the opposite and struggled for a bit until I had experimented with what I was eating. In the end I knew the meals and the portion size of carbs and protein that kept my sugars low and ate the same things week in and out with only the occasional tweak mostly eating fat.

Lately with experimenting with a bit higher protein than before pregnancy where previously I was eating 1g/kg and afraid of it impacting my sugars now I am having up to 2g/kg lean body mass and have found it no longer has an impact on my blood sugars now that my insulin is low. It is very interesting to see how stable and consistent my blood sugars are now with eating more protein and I have the self managed satiety back again.