Macros - am I supposed to hit all numbers?

[Daisy]

Percentages will always be a bit confusing because they are based on caloric intake. It is easier to stick with grams. If you were to use %, the amount of carbs you eat would vary. As to your list, you basically have it back to front. Start with the carbs and keep them <20g per day. You don’t need to have the whole 20g. Actually, if you are just eating whole foods, the rest will likely sort itself out and you don’t need to worry too much about calculating anything. Stick to mealtimes only and avoid snacking. Fatty protein, above-ground veggies (especially leafy greens), dairy, nuts and seeds - if you stick to these foods, you really can’t go far wrong. Keep a carb count until you are used to knowing how many are in what.

[Anniegirl9]

Protein has 4 calories per gram while fat has 9.

So if you end up with 90g of each (for the sake of simplicity, let’s say you were zero carb that day), you wouldn’t be 50/50. It would be about 70%fat, 30%protein, even though it’s the exact same grams.

[Alecmcq]

There are people who will tell others to keep adding fat (often well past what is comfortable) to lose weight

I get that and agree that adding fat past what is comfortable is crazy talk. But adding fat to get to a reasonable calorie total is surely the right thing to do.

I hope that we are agreeing that eating 1200 calories is too low, and if consistently eaten will lower metabolism? And that the keto guidelines for the OP should be to eat more fat compared to her initial macros?

[RobC]

I think there are 2 answers here.

1. In early stages you should up the fat (similar to trying to hit the fat numbers) because your hormones will not really let you get at your stored fat (they mostly just make you feel bad and make you desire cookies). You might also end up in “metabolic slowdown” land if your psychology (not satiety) is the culprit that is making you keep fats low.
2. After a couple of months of pure keto I still think you are trying to hit the fat numbers but, due to satiety, it should be a combination of dietary fat and the fat from your body (which can now be accessed easily after low insulin for a long time because of limiting carbs).

So, if you are monitoring all of this, you should be able to see regular weight loss proportional to the amount less you are taking in after a few months when you let eating to satiety limit intake.

[Roy_D_Rushing_Jr]

I suppose a perfect world would involve you getting perfectly satiated at the exact time your fats, carbs, and proteins clicked over to the recommended amounts. That seems to rarely be the case though. If you’re still hungry then, you need to eat something. That’s just the fact of the matter. What your macros will help you determine at that point is just what you get to eat. I’d say that you can let protein go over the goal by a decent amount, and allow fat to go as high as it needs to for you to quell your hunger. I know it’s hard to picture just eating fat, so what you have to do is let it ride along with some protein in as high a ratio as you can manage. The protein doesn’t hurt you too bad, and the fat doesn’t really hurt you at all, so you’ve got a decent amount of leeway with both of those categories. Where you have to stand firm when all is said and done is with carbs. If you’re out of carbs for the day, that’s it. You’re left with fat and protein, with as many of the calories you take in as possible coming from fat.

[Daisy]

Yes I agree - context is key

I am very much not a fan of restricting calories. Reducing your overall intake with fasting is a much better way to go and, as we know, works differently to chronically reducing calories.

[Daisy]

Plus whatever you find works best for you. One person will find eating more protein hits the spot and another eating more fat. Experimenting is useful on keto - and tasty

[KetoLikeaLady]

0.8-1g per kg of lean body mass,

I think you meant 0.6-0.8g per POUND of Lean Body Mass. The kg formula is 1-1.5g per kg of Lean Body Mass.
Example - 100lbs of LBM would equal:
in the pound formula - 60-80g
in the kg formula - 45-68g

.8-1g per kg of LBM would be super low - 46-45g

[Rajseth]

The workable range on protein is large. You could drop to 1/2 gm/kilo and be fine,

[Alecmcq]

I think you meant 0.6-0.8g per POUND of Lean Body Mass. The kg formula is 1-1.5g per kg of Lean Body Mass.

I am quoting the Dudes: they say 0.8-1g per kg of LBM. As has been said elsewhere, there really isn’t a clear consensus on the right protein number: it is a wide range, and we should all experiment to find our good place.

[Ilana_Rose]

Fung has repeatedly said he’s comfortable with 0.8 g/kg LBM. He even says he’s fine with a slightly lower number for those who have significant weight to lose since there will be protein structures that need to go along with all the fat (eg. skin, connective tissue etc.).

[KetoLikeaLady]

F*CK your "diabetic" eye check!

It was just a smartass comment because I have noticed a distinct correlation between people who like eating protein and telling everyone around them to do the same, and people who heap mockery upon ketone measurements. The TLDR version is; I’m still eating between 1g and 1.5g / kg LBM. But since I’m going down this rabbit hole There is no real evidence that more than 1.5g/kg LBM has any benefit. And there is adequate evidence that less than 1g could be inadequate - hence the r…

Ideal ratio of protein to fat?

The two things are really not linked in a linear relationship. The protein you need to maintain your body, and the fat you use to fuel your total daily energy requirements - these are 2 mostly unrelated items. No-one can tell you that your dietary fat must be a fixed ratio of your protein - because that will be wrong for almost everyone. Protein requirement is a function of your lean body mass, if you know exactly what your LBM is then you can eat the RDI (0.84 g/kg) and be dialed in. If you…

Protein? How much

So let’s say you are following Carl and I, you’d be aiming for 1-1.5g/kg. That would be 44-66g a day, in other words a 200-300g T-bone steak is your daily range or roughly half a pound.

There are a lot of different things all over the internet, but the dudes have commonly recommended 1-1.5g/kg of LBM.

Also Benjamin Bikman has recently come out with some studies that show erring on the higher side may be a better option.
Again, n=1. I have been losing lean mass by erring on the lower side.

[Alecmcq]

There are a lot of different things all over the internet, but the dudes have commonly recommended 1-1.5g/kg of LBM.

Blimey, you’re right… I don’t know where my memory has gone awry there. My philosophy in these forums is to advise what I think the dudes would advise, as these are their forums. So I will now change my advice from now on.

I remember having an exchange with @PaulL around the numbers a few weeks ago, and he corrected me, and I thought he corrected me to 0.8-1g. But right now I am struggling to find the exchange we had to see if I misunderstood something or if it is just my memory playing tricks on me.

Isn’t keto supposed to make your brain work better?? Thank you for helping me learn!
Cheers
Alec

[Alecmcq]

It wasn’t @PaulL, it was @Capnbob, and he corrected my units of measure from lbs to kg. So I originally quoted 0.8-1g per lb, he corrected me to per kg, and that’s where it stuck from.

But on re-listening to the dudes and reading your references it is clear that it is 1-1.5g per kg.

Thanks for the correction!
Cheers
Alec

[PaulL]

I’m sure I did say/write 0.8 to 1.0, because that’s what Dr. Phinney usually says. But Dr. Rosedale advocates 0.6, Dr. Bikman advocates more protein rather than less, and Dude Richard says 1.0 to 1.15, for excellent reasons, so I give up, lol!

I strongly advocate going with whatever works, regardless of what the experts say.

Richard also says that too much protein can inhibit ketone production, so while there appears to be plenty of leeway, I wouldn’t go too far overboard with the protein.

[Ilana_Rose]

Could you tell me what the “excellent reasons” are for 1-1.5 g/kg of LBM? I understand the .8 number and even the .6 number but I’m not remembering the rational for the higher numbers.

[RobC]

A college football player trying to literally put on mass for their sport will want more protein (2 or more grams per kilogram LBM). They want to retain all of the muscle they have and add to it. They do this by heavy strength training and high intensity drills nearly daily - performance and muscle mass gain would definitely suffer at traditional keto ratios.

But, if you are closer to Dr. Fung’s camp - if you have lots of extra protein and fat - you want to lose some of both. I think that is why he goes so low on protein - keep metabolism up with fat (from intake+stored) and let your body burn through some of the extra protein too (through fasting/autophagy). Who wants to think about surgery for floppy excess skin after dropping 50+ pounds?

[KetoLikeaLady]

FWIW remember that all this is n=1…
I’ve found that I lose muscle mass on anything lower 1.5g per kg of LBM. (This isn’t in my head…it’s verified via DEXA scan.) However, I’m 5’ 2" and have 100lbs of LBM. Soooo, 1.5g/kg of LBM is only 68g of protein. I also ride 100+ miles a week and do reformer pilates 3 days a week, and recently started adding some weights.

[PaulL]

Could you tell me what the “excellent reasons” are for 1-1.5 g/kg of LBM?

Richard’s post is the one posted in this very thread by @KetoLikeaLady on June 20. He says it better than I can.

[Ketokellie]

I know you have other answers but I’ll chime in with my two sense lol I have lost 20 pounds in 2 months and not once ever hit all my macros . I do make sure I’m under 20 carbs and eat high fats but I don’t count those really I just make sure I’m eating fatty foods or adding fats and just watching the carbs. My fitness pal app helps because I was stalling in weightloss and realized I was eating like 1800 calories and so the app helped me to track and count calories as well as my macros .