Protein gluconeogenesis triggers bingeing?

(Erin Macfarland ) #4

As we lose weight (even small amounts) our bodies realize that their fat stores are being compromised. The body does NOT like to lose weight. Satiety hormones will change as we lose fat. You might find things that didn’t make you hungrier initially do so now. I am recovering from anorexia and have learned a GREAT deal about what weight loss and energy deficit does to our bodies. And when our bodies perceive there is insufficient energy coming in (through a drop in fat stores) it will pretty much ramp up hunger cues or produce a lower satiety response to foods that may have once kept you satisfied. So be aware that even if you haven’t lost a ton of weight your body will still fight to defend its energy supplies and recoup what it lost.

(paul ) #5

Emaca that makes pretty good sense. I have lost about 70 pounds and am now at what most people say is a good weight. I just came off of a 3 day fast and as I ate I found I became crazy hungry. At this point I am pretty able to control it. But certain foods really make me hungrier also. Cheese, nuts, and forget about artificial sweetners of any kind. But the thinner I get the more certain foods ramp up my hunger.

(Doug) #6

@Aqua_chonk To me, this is a confounding question. I’ve seen where different types of protein made a difference, i.e. mostly that fish or chicken wasn’t as satisfying as beef or bacon, for example. Across eggs, bacon and sardines, though - you’ve already got a wide spectrum covered.

The speed of this deal is also surprising. That you feel it right away sounds like some craving is awoken, but I have no answer or even a decent guess here. Our bodies are usually quite good at making glucose from fats or proteins, if that’s what they have to work with, insulin/glucagon problems aside. Yet even if there’s something that is hampering gluconeogenesis, wouldn’t that be present before you start eating? It seems farfetched that all of a sudden - at that first bite - you have low blood sugar and the intense hunger that can accompany it.

(Sonia A.) #7

Maybe you should begin your meals with fat (an avocado for example) and then eat your protein. You’ll feel satiated and won’t be able to give in to your cravings. Also I find that the more I lower my carbs intake, the less I have cravings.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #8

Yeah, the suddenness is what compelled me to post, otherwise I’d just hammer it out on my own. Which I’ll probably end up doing, anyway, par for the course.

To be clear, it’s not a drop in blood sugar but definitely a craving that has me clamping down on protein like a vampire on a neck.

I’ve always had trouble maintaining magnesium levels due to high stress and other physical conditions, maybe I’m going after it in ham. I’m switching to mag citrate on Friday and dosing myself in smaller batches over the course of the day, we’ll see how that works.

(Sonia A.) #9

Did you ever test your fasted insulin? I ask because I’ve read this post from @richard that may apply to you.

(Meeping up the Science!) #10

An insistent and profound craving for protein can often be a nutritional deficiency, too, iron, being the most common.

It could also be head hunger versus physical hunger. When we experience a loss of control eating, the question is what drives the loss of control? Is it the protein or exogenous stimuli? You must also rule out stress, emotions, other hormone imbalances, etc. Satiety is working, so the cause isn’t macros; it’s nutrients or another imbalance.

In my case, I get a drive to overeat when full to the point of a loss of control when my stress reaches a certain point. I have an eating disorder, myself, though, so that is likely not the reason. However, my brain’s entire drive is to reestablish control via eating. Even in cases of obesity, it’s not necessarily the food choice that causes the issue - it’s why we make those choices. My obesity and binging has nothing to do with food, and everything to do with control.

So, likely either a mineral or nutrient deficiency, hormone issues, or something behavioral. A good way to tell is to track stuff. If you are feeling insane cravings with meat only and not protein, likely you need iron or something else. If you feel it universally whether meat or not, might be behavioral or another mineral/vitamin.

(Doug) #11

Yeah - and I’d see it easier it if it was more of a “steady state” thing where you were generally feeling it. Then, the things brought up by @Emacfarland etc., would make more sense to me. Yet you said “The first bite of eggs, bacon or sardines” brings it on - this is what’s the most puzzling. Maybe it’s “head hunger,” as @Donna said?

When I read your description of what you feel, it reminded me of some mornings I’ve had after a night of copious amounts of alcohol. Booze like a hound, and then feel “hollowed out” the next day. Headachy, probably dehydrated, perhaps lowered blood sugar due to the booze, and man - you talk about “having to eat…”

Still questioning why starting to eat would bring it on.

My first time on magnesium citrate felt really good, whether placebo effect or not. Certainly worth a try.

(Meeping up the Science!) #12

Because the food has vital nutrients the body desperately needs. So it’s like, oh crap, where have you been all my life?

It’s basically the biochemical version of cringey internet behavior.

(Doug) #13

If that desperate need is there; …could be, I guess.

:smile::sunglasses:

(Stickin' with mammoth) #14

Yup, yup, yup. I’m thinkin’ this combined with stress was the magical formula from hell. I have PTSD as well as CPTSD, so life has been, shall we say, an interesting and educational ride.

I’m keto, it’s not like I’m not getting tons of mag and iron (I’ve researched every food I’ve eaten since last October, I’m down with the 411), it’s just that so many factors can inhibit their absorption. I get evil muscle cramps after working out, coffee, carbonated anything, alcohol, etc. and not copious amounts of these things, either. It’s just that when you dribble them over the top of the stress sundae, it makes the whole thing go nuclear.

I’ve read that keto can heal the body gradually over many years. (click heels together three times and crosses fingers)

(Meeping up the Science!) #15

I actually had severe calcium and iron absorption even on zero carb pre-WLS because I had Celiac and had no clue. My guts looked fashionably wretched and were basically trashed. Also, all my meds had gluten and I had no idea, as a binder for the materials. WTF meds?

Stress, cortisol, a lack of sleep, etc…all cause weight gain, too. PTSD and C-PTSD have strong biological affects. So much for just “get over it,” eh? I’ve worked with people who have severe health issues that are very physical from that, thank you very much. So, you have a lot going on that isn’t your fault.

I know it’s frustrating. Hang in there, and if we can help with research or stuffs, please let us know.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #16

Oh, my god (sniff) that is precisely what I’ve been wanting to hear for a long time, thank you. Nobody really understood; unless you’ve been to hell personally, you don’t know what hot is.

I stopped a long time ago trying to explain to [insert string of expletives here] doctors all the things I’ve experienced with psychosomatic disorders and the mind-body connection and have been going it alone for decades. Jesus, I can remember one guy diagnosing me with metabolic syndrome and putting me on his own, personal brand of high carb vegetarian protein powder, then blaming me when it didn’t work. [insert fouler string of expletives] He got his own health segment on the local evening news, the bastard.

Funny you should mention the binders in vitamins because I had an intuitive insight to end the multivitamin I had been taking for years. I think my body doesn’t need most of it anymore and the rest, it now needs in different amounts. (sigh) Does this shit eventually get any simpler?

(Meeping up the Science!) #17

Psychosomatic is sort of an interesting term. I dislike it because the brain is a part of the body. I guess not if you’re carrying it around in a jar? But yeah, still in your body. And, anxiety and depression and all sorts of other illnesses have very real physical consequences. The mind and body are very much tied together. I have had clients with many physical issues that resolved as they got help after trauma.

Also forgive me, but I don’t know what gender you are. Often too, people of different genders do not get taken seriously for some health issues. Men and depression for one, and women and chronic pain or heart attacks. Many doctors do not take either seriously, for example, which is 100% asinine.

At any rate, PTSD is often poorly understood even by clinicians, sadly. There’s a reason people who survive trauma often have worse health outcomes, and it’s not because we’re crazy ninnies.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #18

Good point, and I never liked it, either. Most people think it means “imaginary” which couldn’t be further from the truth and makes me wanna swing a dead coyote at their head.

As a writer, I actually take that as a compliment. I’m female and ALL of the doctors I’ve had to deal with were male. If I wrote down every imagined revenge I’ve visited on those narcissistic little chicken hawks, Stephen King would need a Klonopin to read it.

Hell, CPTSD isn’t even in the books, yet. But then, neither is keto, officially. The truth will out.

(Erin Macfarland ) #19

I think “mental hunger” is important and we shouldn’t feel badly for wanting certain foods. I’m like that with peanut butter. Once I start, i can have an entire jar!

(Doug) #20

Erin, good point - it’s definitely a force to be reckoned with. Potato chips, pretzels, Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups…

(Erin Macfarland ) #21

As I’ve weight restored after my eating disorder the mental hunger has subsided and I feel more balanced eating modified keto . But when we restrict any macronutrient our bodies know it. And even though in this case he has been keto for a while it’s still possible for the body to nudge you to eat lots because it’s aware it’s being deprived. As I have dealt with the disorder and recovery over the past three years, I’ve learned a lot about hunger. It often is telling us something even when we think we can rationalize it away.

(Meeping up the Science!) #22

Well, I am a bit more sensitive to gender, and also aware many of us aren’t necessarily what most might expect. My own life and experience makes me annoyed when people assume. Also, it trivializes the non-traditional gender expression some of us have. I think very “male” and when I post with a pseudonym, people invariably make that assumption. I guess girls can’t be pedantic assholes too, or something?

Women get the short end of the stick in healthcare to say the least, especially if we have survived anything more difficult than a paper cut. Our pain and our health issues are rarely taken seriously, and it wasn’t until well into the late 20th century that we even bothered to study the differences in disorders people with biological sex have. What a revolutionary idea… but most people don’t realize the bulk of medicine and psychiatric science is based on studying white, cis, middle to upper class college men for the most part. Only now are things changing.

I actually spent quite a lot of time studying CPTSD, in part because I had to. I often see it undiagnosed in severe cases of obesity. Trauma, I’d argue, is the cause of a significant portion of us who became super morbidly obese. I’ve actually never met anyone near my highest weight who hadn’t gone through a form of trauma. If I’m ever masochistic enough to get my doctorate that’s what I’d likely study.

It’s not very well covered in school yet, however take heart, because the ICD-11 (what basically the whole world and all of American medicine but American psychiatrists uses for diagnostic codes) is putting it up for inclusion in 2018 - which is actually really freaking huge. So, there’s progress. The DSM is only used in America primarily, which I think most people don’t realize. It was actually developed in part by the military, who influenced a lot of American psychology in general.

(Todd Allen) #23

Perhaps it is the insulin response to protein as opposed to gluconeogenesis that is the problem?

From my own testing I see that when I eat more protein both my blood sugar and ketones tend to go down and my hunger can be stimulated. I’m guessing the fall in blood sugar and ketones may indicate a rise in insulin.