Protein gluconeogenesis triggers bingeing?

(Erin Macfarland ) #21

As I’ve weight restored after my eating disorder the mental hunger has subsided and I feel more balanced eating modified keto . But when we restrict any macronutrient our bodies know it. And even though in this case he has been keto for a while it’s still possible for the body to nudge you to eat lots because it’s aware it’s being deprived. As I have dealt with the disorder and recovery over the past three years, I’ve learned a lot about hunger. It often is telling us something even when we think we can rationalize it away.

(Meeping up the Science!) #22

Well, I am a bit more sensitive to gender, and also aware many of us aren’t necessarily what most might expect. My own life and experience makes me annoyed when people assume. Also, it trivializes the non-traditional gender expression some of us have. I think very “male” and when I post with a pseudonym, people invariably make that assumption. I guess girls can’t be pedantic assholes too, or something?

Women get the short end of the stick in healthcare to say the least, especially if we have survived anything more difficult than a paper cut. Our pain and our health issues are rarely taken seriously, and it wasn’t until well into the late 20th century that we even bothered to study the differences in disorders people with biological sex have. What a revolutionary idea… but most people don’t realize the bulk of medicine and psychiatric science is based on studying white, cis, middle to upper class college men for the most part. Only now are things changing.

I actually spent quite a lot of time studying CPTSD, in part because I had to. I often see it undiagnosed in severe cases of obesity. Trauma, I’d argue, is the cause of a significant portion of us who became super morbidly obese. I’ve actually never met anyone near my highest weight who hadn’t gone through a form of trauma. If I’m ever masochistic enough to get my doctorate that’s what I’d likely study.

It’s not very well covered in school yet, however take heart, because the ICD-11 (what basically the whole world and all of American medicine but American psychiatrists uses for diagnostic codes) is putting it up for inclusion in 2018 - which is actually really freaking huge. So, there’s progress. The DSM is only used in America primarily, which I think most people don’t realize. It was actually developed in part by the military, who influenced a lot of American psychology in general.

(Todd Allen) #23

Perhaps it is the insulin response to protein as opposed to gluconeogenesis that is the problem?

From my own testing I see that when I eat more protein both my blood sugar and ketones tend to go down and my hunger can be stimulated. I’m guessing the fall in blood sugar and ketones may indicate a rise in insulin.

(Meeping up the Science!) #24

You can gain several pounds of weight without calories/protein/glucose/insulin from:

  • steroid hormones (estrogens, testosterone, etc)
  • cortisol
  • adrenal issues
  • lack of sleep
  • too much sleep
  • depression
  • medication
  • thyroid impairment (fluid retention)
  • pituitary issues

Never mind environmental stuff, illness, organ issues, etc.

It might be that stuff, but it’s hard to tell if it’s GNG alone, when considering everything else. A better method I think, is to track carefully, but also reduce stress and sleep adequately. When you rule out cortisol and stress, proceed down the metabolic list: thyroid? steroid hormones?

I’d actually rule out stress and sleep first, as those are quiet culprits of weight gain many of us ignore.

(Doug) #25

It’s a fascinating question - "Where does this craving come from?" Erin, I hear you about that the body may be telling us something. That’s the flipside of what I’m more used to - the mind contorting itself most creatively to justify eating more, etc. “Better a bushel too much than an ounce too little.”

On feeling more balanced on keto - I think this is a thing. I’ve had cravings and given into some of them, but it’s nothing like it was eating carbohydrates. Way back around 1980 I fasted for six days, knowing almost nothing about it. Lost a lot of weight, most of it water, then broke down on the evening of the sixth day, went to the store in frenzy mode, and had an absolutely legendary and ridiculous pig-out at home that night. Keto seems much calmer.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #26

Yes, thank you, Todd, this was my other idea and I neglected to include it in my rant. I’m hoping that adding magnesium and keeping my protein macros on the low side will yield desirable results.

The only reason I haven’t reduced protein before is that for nearly a year now, my muscles haven’t repaired themselves well after light exercise and I’ve had ludicrous levels of DOMS–I’ve got the keto energy, just not the overall keto performance. Frustrating as hell for a former power lifter and mountain climber to moan the morning after a short stroll on the beach. My knee-jerk worry about it was getting enough protein but I’m settling in to the idea that with me, it’s all about absorption.

(Erin Macfarland ) #27

To be clear, I’m not saying we always have to listen to our mental hunger (“Eat that bag of Doritos!!”) I’m saying that we as a culture have gotten so used to listening to external sources to tell us how and what and when to eat that we have lost touch with the fact that our bodies are damn smart and know how to keep us well. As I lost more and more weight and became emaciated, the hunger was uncontrollable and I tried hard to remain keto, so I would eat huge amounts of keto “treats” to try and satisfy the hunger. But at that point my body needed carbs because my fat stores were dangerously low. So I had to leave keto behind to gain weight and restore my health. My story is a long and complicated one but suffice to say that I had compromised the hunger signals from my body for so long that figuring out when I’m hungry and what I’m hungry for has been a struggle. Anorexia is not a disease someone chooses. It’s a mental illness triggered by energy restriction and it leads to a state where not eating feels better than eating. But during my recovery, when I had to eat upwards of 10,000 calories a day, I could eat an entire box of cereal and many peanut butter sandwiches and not feel full. As my weight has reached a healthier place and I began trying out a modified keto eating style, I eat those satisfying keto foods and the hunger disappears. I still hear that mental hunger though (“We should eat a jar of peanut butter!”) and I will consider it, and sometimes have a little of whatever I’m thinking about, but I no longer have the crazed desire to eat the contents of the fridge. However, eating the contents of the fridge for many months was absolutely necessary for me. So, my point is, if something is causing us to strongly crave a particular food or type of food, that’s worth thinking about. There may be an imbalance in the diet that needs addressing. I think it’s great to take magnesium and such but I do not believe those diet gurus who say we crave chocolate because we’re magnesium deficient. We crave chocolate because chocolate is delicious and gives our bodies and our minds nourishment and pleasure. It’s like telling someone it’s unnatural to have a sex drive, and that they should pray or take a walk or knit a sweater instead. Sorry, we have drives as humans that are non negotiable and that we can’t always override by thinking them away!

(Jason Fletcher) #28

If you have this happening all the time you have a electrolyte problem and this needs to be solved first. Like some have said magnesium citrate or Glycinate will work. Plus eat foods with more potassium. If you are driven to eat sardines then your body is telling you more salt. I don’t know if you feel low energy as well as feel as if you have low blood pressure? These are all factors that point to electrolytes as well. Not sure if you have a history of kidney function problems as well this can cause a greater imbalance and may have to be looked into if you are taking enough electrolytes and still getting killer cramps. Your hunger and all other hormones are going to be affected by this until this is corrected you will not be able to look into other possibility for increased hunger until this is fixed.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #29

Which is why I’m doing the magnesium treatment I mentioned.

(Chiro Man) #30

Different protien metabolize differently different different amino acids have different effects on the body as both signals and how they’re turned into energy. Not to mention the composition of each type of protein absorbed differently eggs absorb at a different rate than protein shake that’s why people drink whey protein cuz they absorb faster. Your body wants sugar for its brain it will make it from protein you need some sugar. Your body is great at adappting… Shaking things up with a new approach for awhile could help reset your system. What is the reason you can try IF if you don’t mind sharing… Hunger is effected by your brain and body, and even the bacteria in your gut so it can be hard to peg down the cause. Just like when you frist started keto your forced your body to change gears I have never stuck with one approach indefinitely. I find it’s like eating seasonly, eat while it works switch when it stops. Everything I have tried I have done I learn something from and try to shape how I will eat once I hit my goal wieght… It’s all training for the lifestyle change(assuming you want to keep it off)… Just making sure if there was any additional issue other than what was mentioned above.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #31

I assume you mean “can’t try IF.” I have tried it, the best I can manage is 8/16. I have comorbid stress-related conditions that compromise my entire system, so I have to go slow and gentle with just about every lifestyle change, even healthy ones. For instance, I lost half my hair going keto. No kidding: half.

(Meeping up the Science!) #32

I also can’t really fast much longer than that without getting severely ill. Everyone’s body is different for various reasons. However, even 8/16 is an improvement over eating once an hour. I realize that many see fasting as the great panacea. Unfortunately, there are a significant number of people that can’t necessarily do it, especially without medical monitoring.

Losing significant amounts of hair when changing diets isn’t that uncommon, though the amount is high. However, I lost half my hair after WLS. Any change shocks the system, and can cause telogen effluvium. It may not seem typical, but it’s a known phenomenon after any shock to the system (surgery, some medications, any diet changes, etc).

(Stickin' with mammoth) #33

Yeah, but losing my last good attribute was harsh.

(Chiro Man) #34

I do not know what you’ve gone through so forgive me if this is an inappropriate question… If you haven’t lost much weight and it’s affecting you negatively physically like the hair loss why continue Keto… or let me rephrase that what is your primary goal with the keto is it weight loss mental Improvement or General Health and Wellness. Have you had any postive response?

#35

I too have CPTSD following near death experience in vechile crash. Still getting surgeries and pain 4 yr later.
Keto has made me feel bit better but CPTSD made me stop sleeping, increased BG and I just had CABG. Cardio said it was mainly from not sleeping which built up plague so quickly.
Anyhow I put that first so you knew " I get ya!"

How much protein in a day are you getting? Wondering if it’s too much daily and could be bumping insulin levels thus always hungry?Just a thought…

(Stickin' with mammoth) #36

Thanks, Canuck. It’s a hard thing to explain to people and 99.9% have no clue. One guy actually said to me, “Have you tried not being sick?”

I’ve never been a violent person, but…

(Stickin' with mammoth) #37

Yes, I have, but I’m not disposed to rehash my history just now. My point in starting this thread is to let people know that there can be roadblocks and mysteries to decipher on keto, not everybody just sails through without incident, and not to feel like a failure if they aren’t a happy, shiny After picture in less than a year.