Possibly worth its own subcategory: Alcohol and keto?

(anonymous294) #47

Thank you for your reply! The matter is confusing to me, as my prior understanding was that combining alcohol with food could potentially help mitigate the insulin response.

(Gabor Erdosi) #48

You don’t have to drink alcohol at all. Similarly, you don’t have to maximize ketone levels as it doesn’t have further proven benefits for diabetes. I mean sporting 1 mmol or 3 mmol on average makes not much difference. You can maximize fat burning by increasing the consumption of foods that are known to induce more thermogenesis while have suppressing effects on satiety. Also, add other environmental influences that increase thermogenic demand, especially in adipose tissue, e.g cold exposure.
One way to increase ketone levels is fasting, however the benefits don’t come from the higher ketone levels per se.
I personally manage an autoimmune disease with the KD and do see a benefit of higher ketones, although never measure its level, so am not aware about the threshold. However, the benefit I literally feel in my bones is suppressed inflammation from the disease, quite different to your expectations.

(anonymous294) #49

@erdoke Thank you for your followup. I do wish to occasionally have alcohol. Does having dietary fat with the alcohol help to minimize the insulin impact? Is dietary fat consumed with alcohol likely to be stored because of the insulin response to alcohol?

When I said “maximize ketosis & fat burning”, I wasn’t refering to ketone leveIs. I was referencing how to minimize the amount of time ketogenesis & fat burning are suspended while your body prioritizes metabolism of the alcohol.

(Gabor Erdosi) #50

Dietary fat itself elicits an insulin response. All foods do. I haven’t seen a study specifically looking into the differences between insulin responses to alcohol with or without fat, so I am not of further help with this.
Yes, if you drink alcohol its burning is prioritized even over glucose, so will have an impact on burning fat. Amount matters for sure.

(Tina) #51

Yes, sadly I had that happen to me. I demanded a blood test, and the policeman said they don’t do those in that city. So as soon as I was released I went to the ER and paid out of pocket for one. I took this report to my lawyer and he was able to get the DUI dropped. The good news is no DUI, but the lawyer wasn’t cheap. I had not checked my blood ketones that morning buy I was blowing “insta-red” on the Ketonix. I don’t remember the exact # I blew but it equated to a Super Extreme which would be over a .2. For me that would be like 19 beers.

(Roxanne) #52

YES, this happens to me, too. I tried asking about it on the old FB forum and it didn’t seem to be a common occurrence. Like you, I make sure I’m hydrated and take magnesium and potassium supplements regularly, and I up my salt intake if I’ve had a drink, but it’s still problematic.

Have you since found any relief?

(Georgette) #53

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. The answer is no. I’ve added a calcium supplement to my regimens, but I still get leg cramps when I drink.

(Dave Smith) #54

I think I do get buzzed more easily while Keto-ing. Watch it though cause your liver is busy with fats while you are in Ketosis so you are throwing more work at it when it has to process that alcohol. And do not go for the sugary drinks. I do whiskey or bourbon with ice or neat. Maybe some non-sweet wine but that’sa bit more carby than the straight liquor generally. I’d say to remember to drink a little more water if you’re having some booze in Ketosis.

(Jillian) #55

So you’re saying i should eat some bacon with my whiskey?:wink::wink::joy:

(Tina Emmons) #56

I hope you’re leaving out some zeros here. .2 is 2 1/2 times the legal limit in the US and 4.0, you’re dead! We are .08 but anyone reading this take note!!! You can be arrested and fully prosecuted with a .05 in CA. It’s the true limit and they don’t tell us. Don’t ask me how I know!

(Vesa McD) #57

I think they use dl (deciliters) here in Finland instead, which throws off the decimal in countries with different units. Good point, though. My meter, in that case, maxes out at 0.4.

(barrytspencer) #58

Someone mentioned beer as ‘liquid bread’
I find if I drink i’m tempted to eat more and sometimes carby-foods

(icky) #59

So, I’m curious about the alcohol/ keto thing.

Obviously, it’s a free world, so I and everyone else can combine keto and alcohol, however they see fit.

I’m interested in understanding the effects of say 2 glasses of wine in terms of keto/ insulin/ blood sugar/ fat burning/ etc. so that I know what I’m dealing with/ not dealing with, if I choose to have some wine with a meal.

^ The first time I tried Keto in 2018, I definitely noticed this. My sense of “drunkenness” would totally plateau. In fact, I recall not even getting that “buzz”… It felt kinda like I couldn’t get that nice relaxed-buzzed-fun-easy feeling that 2 glasses of wine would usually give me. I haven’t tried it out on Keto this time yet…

^This makes sense to me and I think I’ve heard it before… That the liver prioritises getting the toxin out of the body and that many other things are put on hold as a result.

^ I have never heard this before… That’s kinda cool/ interesting/ weird.

So… alcohol and keto… what’s there to know/ consider that’s specific to keto as opposed having a drink or two when you’re eating a carby diet…?

(Bob M) #60

Usually, alcohol lowers blood sugar. See this for instance:

(A bit of a strange study, because the first two blood glucose values go up for the alcohol, but the end result is more hypoglycemia, meaning more lowered blood sugar. Insulin is higher for the alcohol, which could explain the lowered blood sugar over time.)

As for alcohol’s effect, I have found it to be weird. Sometimes, a single drink will hit me hard; other times, it doesn’t hit me much at all. It’s unclear why.

(Kirk Wolak) #61

Before Carbs, we had ALCOHOLIC FATTY LIVER, now we have NAFLD.
Poisoning your Organs is probably bad. I truly believe Steve Jobs would be here today if he went Keto instead of Fruitarian. Where I believe he damaged his pancreas, leading to pancreatic cancer.

Of course, you are a grown up. You Do You. But want to chime in. I’ve known a few drinkers. Alcoholism and Addiction run in my family. I am lucky that food was my addiction. If you are wondering about “Drinking DAILY” or some approximation of that… I would recommend getting help.

I NEVER felt better the day after drinking. In fact, I would feel worse immediately if I drank things with dark colors, etc. So maybe it’s me.

But I believe Alcohol is a poison first… And a social lubricant like 5th…
It has impaired my ability to think. And while I thought it was “fun” in my late teens… No thank you.

Is drinking with carbs “less bad” than drinking without them? Probably not.
It depends on your goals. If you want to be healthy, then KETO/Carnivore and Drink for celebrations (Your Birthday, Your Anniversary, New Years) seems reasonable to me.

But I had someone ask me “Okay, help me do Keto… What kind of alcohol can I have? … Daily … And stay in Ketosis … But 2-3 times a week, I know I am going to overdo it… Is that bad? Will it still work?”

I refer to it as “Dirty, Rotten, Stinking Drunk Keto…” That was DAILY dinking plus one or more WEEKLY Binges…

Personally, I would just kill myself with Carbs as if I had 3 months left to live.
So, I am probably not the right person to ask. If I had 3 months left to live, I am NOT SURE if I would drink once a month!

But only because once I gave it up for a year… Then the first shot of GOOD vodka I had… Made my joints swell up, and I Could not even close my hand. I Couldn’t imagine what was happening in my liver. (Not a vodka fan, but it was really clean, and it was a test).

#62

If I wasn’t totally depressed (or whatever I can do instead) or actively working to make the 3 months becoming 30 years, I probably would drink way more than I have drunk in my whole life… :smiley: Of course, my drinking past is drastically different.

No way I would ate much carbs as it just makes everything worse and I like to feel good, not like I could feel good with imminent death when I didn’t live yet (it’s different if I am pleased enough and ready to go)… But that’s our different reason not to eat (or eat) carbs. I eat whatever I fancy even with plans to live 80 more years. I just make sure I fancy the right things most of the time, it’s not hard, I love my carni food best anyway. Except sometimes fruits, they are just so awesome but I eat them in moderation as I am a hedonist.

I agree, alcohol is factually a toxin and drinking it daily isn’t a good idea. Except maybe in super tiny amounts in certain circumstances, lots of people had that lifestyle without resulting in alcoholism (I know some people consider regular drinking that but I strongly disagree). I am a Hungarian, we are somewhere on top regarding alcohol consumption and drinking every morning always was a huge common thing here. I don’t even understand in fanfics when they talk about drinking early (like 2pm so not even at 5-8am as it was the thing here. surely still is but I don’t know details) as it was something extreme and bad… We always had huge selections of shot sized little bottles filled with cheap booze everywhere, people with various backgrounds depended on it daily.
But yeah, alcoholism is big here and it probably affected what I consider “normal”. Even if my family members almost never drank. Why would we drink on birthdays? That’s so often and what if I don’t fancy alcohol on that day (as it’s normal)? :smiley: So we did it differently. Had a little spiced wine at Christmas and stuff though. Birthdays never were big deals. And name days even less so but I imagine tons of Hungarians drink like crazy even then. Good excuse, after all, not like Hungarians would need it if starting of a workday is good enough… I heard (I am very asocial so don’t really know people) alcohol pushing is big too so not drinking socially is tough. If one doesn’t have my attitude, at least. I never yield when I was pushed about what I put into my body, see my successful continued vegetarianism at my relatives, they didn’t get it and never accepted but that wasn’t MY problem, was it? :smiley: I hate when people too aggressively push food or drink on someone else (or in any way if they kind of know the other one should avoid the item. that maddens me). But both are big things here in the name of hospitality or whatever.

Keto and alcohol, I can’t say much about it, hence I was silent until now. My already tiny alcohol consumption drastically dropped after I went keto. But I never was particularly attached to alcohol, I just refuse to give up the freedom of drinking some (even if there is zero effect, sadly. I can’t drink enough for that. it means I drink super tiny amounts and can’t change it without force, it comes naturally) and certain kinds are super flavorful too. (I need to buy a bottle of Glenlivet again… Just once, after a decade… Just smelling it would make half of my evening :slight_smile: Our first bottle lasted for 2 years I think… This one probably will last WAY longer, my SO drinks even less than me.)
I drink for taste as I can’t drink enough for effect (sometimes I get lucky but very rarely) and even with food, this often doesn’t require much. But unlike with food, my body just says “stop” very quickly. I am very thankful my relationship with alcohol is way healthier than with food. Food is a big enough problem alone.

My opinion/attitude about drinking is the same as consuming other harmful but somewhat nice, tempting (and social, culture and so many things are involved) substances. Amount and frequency matter. And if the body says no, don’t use it. Or if it already in bad shape and can’t handle it without sweating… Mine is pretty healthy and surely can handle my few milliliters of alcohol per months (and the few deciliters of wine in December. and the even less beer per year). A way higher amount probably would be still okay, I just don’t want it. If I wanted some “normal” amount of alcohol quite regularly (even if it wasn’t a NEED, that sounds bad), I would want to change. It IS a toxin, we should be careful with it. And while I understand a more alcoholic (still not crazy) day now and then for fun or something, regularly? No. It sounds bad even mentally…

And if it’s rare, I wouldn’t care so much, I enjoy myself and my normal good days will keep me fine :slight_smile:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #63

The standard advice about liquor on keto is that wines usually contain a lot of carbohydrate, so you need to count that against your daily carb limit. The hard spirits have a lot less carbohydrate.

As for the sensation of drinking, I was the world’s worst judge of how drunk I was, once I took that first drink. That’s why i don’t drink anymore. But the testimony on these forums is that the alcohol hits a lot harder on keto.

Fructose (which makes up one half of a sucrose molecule) and alcohol are both metabolised by the same pathway in the liver. Fatty liver disease is therefore fatty liver disease, regardless of whether you overwhelmed that pathway with alcohol, sugar, or both. Fructose and alcohol both behave the same ways in the body; the only real difference is that fructose lacks ethanol’s immediate toxic effects. But they are both mitochondrial toxins, and they both affect the brain’s reward centre (nucleus accumbens) in the same way.

(Geoffrey) #64

I chose to abstain from alcohol but not so much because of my WOE but for my health issues.
Now that doesn’t mean I won’t have a drink on a very rare occasion. It will need to be a special occasion but that one whiskey, once or twice a year is not going to bother me.
I’ve never had a problem with alcohol and have always been able to take it or leave it. I really like a good whiskey or ale but it’s just never been an addiction.
My father was an alcoholic but I dare anyone to fight in three wars and not be.

(Bob M) #65

Whoa, he fought in three wars? That’s amazing (albeit not in a good way…)!

Full disclosure: I still drink alcohol. Lately, one drink Friday and one drink Saturday. Sorry all.

(Brian) #66

I was listening to Dr. Berry yesterday and noted that he said he’ll probably have a drink or two over the holidays but probably not any more for several months following.

Basically, his thoughts were that drinking alcohol isn’t good, ever. But that a drink a few times a year, for most people, is a non-event.

I tend to be the type that does enjoy a drink from time to time. I do not ever have a drink every day. It is sometimes months between drinks. And when I do drink, it is usually wine and usually a single glass of it.

I had a glass with my Thanksgiving dinner. And I started a batch (basically about a bottle’s worth, homebrew) that should be ready for a little at Christmas, maybe a little at New Years.

I do not drink away from home, either, ever. I just don’t. And never, ever, ever get drunk. I just don’t.

I think everyone has to find their spot. Some will choose to leave it alone altogether and never have any at all. Some will have a little on special occasions. Some probably need to let go of a bad habit that they can’t control.

Thing of it is, a person needs to understand what it is, what it does to a person, and how it affects your health overall. A person makes choices and sometimes those choices include things that we want to do that aren’t necessarily good for us. As Dr. Berry has said previously, “Sometimes, like on your birthday, ya just eat the damned cheesecake.”

(Heresy from here on, don’t read if heresy offends… LOL!)

FWIW, every few years, I will go to a place with a VERY good donut shop. None like it I’ve ever had. I will pick up a dozen, the real thing. And among family, usually 4 of us, over the course of several days, we’ll enjoy the heck outta those donuts. Yeah, I know exactly what they are. They poison… delicious poison. Will I do that every day? Heck no! It’s been nearly 2 years, I think. But if I should find myself there today, I would buy a dozen donuts and would enjoy every crumb. Don’t worry, it would be a 1300 mile round trip, not likely any time soon. I don’t want “keto friendly substitutes”. Not the same, not even really much of a temptation, not even interested. Maybe there is something to be said for being spoiled with the REALLY good stuff. Cheap garbage is no longer appealing.