Oxalates


(Brian) #8

Thanks, David.

I haven’t had much computer time today but took a quick peek at what Mr. Google said about lectins and oxalics. There might be some exceptions but it seems like most of what I like in the keto vegetable realm is pretty good, with a few exceptions.

Broccoli, cauliflower and Brussels sprouts appear to be good. Asparagus appears to be good. Green beans, not perfect but far from the worst offenders (I suspect how much of the “bean” is formed in the greenbean probably has something to do with it).

I never did like flax so that’s easy for me.

A couple that I do like that I guess I need to be at least a little careful about are tomatoes and eggplant. With eggplant, we usually do eat the seeds but not usually the skin. With tomatoes, skins and seeds usually get consumed whereas with our homemade tomato sauce, the skins and seeds are removed. So maybe the sauce is a little better than the fresh tomatoes. (?)

Maybe I’m pretty lucky that most of the things on the better end of the list are things that we naturally gravitate towards here. I haven’t explored very far into the nuts yet…


(Full Metal KETO) #9

I’ve al
So read that lectins are not created equal. Some are extremely poisonous like risin. It comes from several fruit pits like cherries. Tomato lectin mostly bonds with gut lining and some scientists think it is a protective coating on the stomach lining that helps prevent bacteria from entering the bloodstream. Other lectins from dairy I believe can bond with free amino acid in your bloodstream and prevent your body from using the proteins. It’s all a bit controversial and complex for many and still being studied. Some lectins are necessary for certain bodily functions. Fava and kidney beans contain very harmful lectins that can cause extreme gastric disturbances if they are raw. Many lectins are neutralized by cooking or soaking.


(Chris - carnivoremuscle.com) #10

Have you checked out anything by Dr. Ede at diagnosisdiet.com?


(Edith) #11

I’m reviving this topic from January because a podcast recently brought oxalates to my attention. I haven’t researched it enough at this point to give a truly educated discussion about them, but I’m wondering if they are the root of my troubles.

When I started eating keto, I increased the amount of greens and nuts in my diet. I ate a lot of mixed baby greens, berries, a lot of nuts, and I did keto pancakes and bread replacements using almond flour. All of these things are high in oxalates.

One of the things oxalates do, besides depositing razor-like crystals in various parts of your body, is combine with calcium and magnesium. This can result in deficiency symptoms of these minerals. I’m now wondering if that’s why my need for magnesium increased and why I developed the heart palpitations.

One of the things that happens when a person decreases the amount of oxalates in the food he or she is eating is what’s called an “oxalate dump.” When you stop eating oxalates, it gives your body a chance to rid itself of the oxalate that built up in your body over the years. These oxalate dumps can actually make you feel worse until they pass.

I started a carnivore trial back in May. Eating only meat caused me to quickly remove all oxalate from my diet. I felt great at first, but I started to have joint pain in my back and toes (left foot only :woman_shrugging:.) I thought maybe I was missing something in my diet of only meat, but now I’m wondering if it has to do with oxalate dumping. Needs for B vitamins also goes up with oxalate toxicity. High amounts of vitamin C can actually be problematic.

Here is a link to the podcast that got me thinking about this:

So, I’m going back to keto carnivore to see if my joint issues eventually go away. Some sources said the dumping can take more than a year and that it occurs intermittently. I’ll give it six months for now.


(Bob M) #12

I have found that I have a hard time with vitamin C. While I’m not totally plant free, I’ve stopped eating chocolate and other high-oxalate plants. When I take vitamin C, it seems to affect me negatively.

I listened to that podcast a while ago. I’m never sure what to think. Oxalates affect her very greatly. For Tucker Goodrich, PUFAs affected him very greatly. Thus, each has their own thoughts about what we should not eat. The issue is, do these affect me in the same way? It’s often hard to tell.


#13

FYI

Excess Vitamin C from high dose supplements is converted into oxalates and will lead to kidney stones. A family member went through this after popping vitamin C supplements like candy.

White specs on the nails are an indication of oxalate deposits.


#14

Wow, nice to know. Thank you!


(Full Metal KETO) #15

@Consistency

What Really Causes Kidney Stones

(And Why Vitamin C Does Not)

(OMNS Feb 11, 2013) A recent widely-publicized study claimed that vitamin C supplements increased the risk of developing kidney stones by nearly a factor of two.[1] The study stated that the stones were most likely formed from calcium oxalate, which can be formed in the presence of vitamin C (ascorbate), but it did not analyze the kidney stones of participants. Instead, it relied on a different study of kidney stones where ascorbate was not tested. This type of poorly organized study does not help the medical profession or the public, but instead causes confusion.

The study followed 23,355 Swedish men for a decade. They were divided into two groups, one that did not take any supplements (22,448), and another that took supplements of vitamin C (907). The average diet for each group was tabulated, but not in much detail. Then the participants who got kidney stones in each group were tabulated, and the group that took vitamin C appeared to have a greater risk of kidney stones. The extra risk of kidney stones from ascorbate presented in the study is very low, 147 per 100,000 person-years, or only 0.15% per year.

Key points the media missed:

  • The number of kidney stones in the study participants who took ascorbate was very low (31 stones in over a decade), so the odds for statistical error in the study are fairly high.
  • The study was observational. It simply tabulated the intake of vitamin C and the number of kidney stones to try to find an association between them.
  • This method does not imply a causative factor because it was not a randomized controlled study, that is, vitamin C was not given to a group selected at random.
  • This type of observational study is fraught with limitations that make its conclusion unreliable.
  • It contradicts previous studies that have clearly shown that high dose ascorbate does not cause kidney stones.[2-6]
  • The study authors’ conclusion that ascorbate caused the low rate of stones is likely due to a correlation between the choice of taking a vitamin C supplement with some other aspect of the participants’ diet.
  • The study could not determine the nature of this type of correlation, because it lacked a detailed study of each patient’s diet and a chemical analysis of each stone to provide a hint about the probable cause.

So we have a poorly designed study that did not determine what kind of stone was formed, or what caused the stones that were formed. These are serious flaws. Drawing conclusions from such a study can hardly be a good example of “evidence based medicine.”

Different Types of Kidney Stones (Renal Calculi)

There is a considerable variety of kidney stones. Here are five well-known ones:

  1. Calcium phosphate stones are common and easily dissolve in urine acidified by vitamin C.

  2. Calcium oxalate stones are also common but they do not dissolve in acid urine. We will discuss this type further below.

  3. Magnesium ammonium phosphate (struvite) stones are much less common, often appearing after an infection. They dissolve in urine acidified by vitamin C.

  4. Uric acid stones result from a problem metabolizing purines (the chemical base of adenine, xanthine, theobromine [in chocolate] and uric acid). They may form in a condition such as gout.

  5. Cystine stones result from an hereditary inability to reabsorb cystine. Most children’s stones are this type, and these are rare.

The Oxalate Oxymoron

The oxalate/vitamin C issue appears contradictory. Oxalate is in oxalate stones and oxalate stones are common. Ascorbate (the active ion in vitamin C) may slightly increase the body’s production of oxalate. Yet, in practice, vitamin C does not increase oxalate stone formation. Emanuel Cheraskin, MD, DMD, Professor of Oral Medicine at the University of Alabama, explains why: “Vitamin C in the urine tends to bind calcium and decrease its free form. This means less chance of calcium’s separating out as calcium oxalate (stones).”[7] Also, the diuretic effect of vitamin C reduces urine concentration of oxalate. Fast moving rivers deposit little silt. If on a consultation, a doctor advises that you are especially prone to forming oxalate stones, read the suggestions below before abandoning the benefits of vitamin C. Once again: vitamin C increases oxalate but inhibits the union of calcium and oxalate.

Oxalate is generated by many foods in the diet, including spinach (100-200 mg oxalate per ounce of spinach), rhubarb, and beets.[8-10] Tea and coffee are thought to be the largest source of oxalate in the diet of many people, up to 150-300 mg/day.[8,11] This is considerably more than would likely be generated by an ascorbate dose of 1000 mg/day.[5,12]

The study we are discussing didn’t tabulate the participants’ intake of oxalate, but on average they had relatively high intakes (several cups) of tea and coffee. It is possible that those who had kidney stones had them before the study started, or got them during the study, due to a particularly high intake of oxalate. For example, the participants that took vitamin C may have been trying to stay healthy, but the subset of those who got kidney stones might also have been trying to stay healthy by drinking a lot of tea or coffee, or eating green leafy vegetables such as spinach. Or they may have been older people who got dehydrated, which is also very common among men who are active outside during the summer. Among the most important factors in kidney stones is dehydration, especially among the elderly.[13]

Summarizing:

  • Ascorbate in low or high doses generally does not cause significant increase in urinary oxalate.[2-6]
  • Ascorbate tends to prevent formation of calcium oxalate kidney stones.[3,4]
  • Risk factors for kidney stones include a history of hypertension, obesity, chronic dehydration, poor diet, and a low dietary intake of magnesium.

(Full Metal KETO) #16

Here’s more,

:cowboy_hat_face:


#17

A strategy that may help is to maintain some higher calcium dairy, if not allergic, to allow the calcium to help bind the oxalate. At the same time stay hydrated (might be a winter time plan?) and take the citrate salt of magnesium to gastrointestinal tolerance, to reduce the risk of developing a calcium oxalate kidney stone. Just don’t take the magnesium and calcium at the same sitting as they compete for uptake from the gut.

My experience of a 21 day carnivore test was the return of atrial fibrillation despite taking recommended dose magnesium supplementation. I upped the dose of magnesium citrate to 3600mg per day, which is equivalent to 600mg per day of elemental magnesium, which is an estimate of paleolithic intake. I’ll come at carnivorish, more like low plants and low carb, as compared to no plants, at a different way this time round, much more aware of the oxalate dump.


(Bob M) #18

My problem with Vitamin C is that when I take it, it makes feel strange. I don’t like the feeling.


#19

good info.


#20

She is my go to :slight_smile: histamine intolerant, oxalates are my enemy :wink:


(Edith) #21

Thanks for such a comprehensive analysis.


(Edith) #22

@Meerkatsandy, I noticed that fruits and vegetables on the high oxalate list also tend to be on the high histamine list.


(Edith) #23

I can’t tolerate that much magnesium citrate. My 800 mg of magnesium glycinate seems to be working well for me. I will admit that has me slightly above threshold where consistency is concerned but not frequency.

Also, it turns out my foot and back trouble was most likely due to trigger points in my muscles.

Also, I haven’t gone completely back to carnivore, yet, to test my hypothesis. I am eating low oxalate foods, though.


#24

Yup, a few are or/or, but the rest, histamine and oxalates, are intertwined into one big no-no.


#25

I listened to another good interview with Sally K Norton yesterday, it was from April, with Dr. Paul Saladino and is available on youtube. It’s worth a listen even if you’ve heard interviews with her before. I always seem to pick up something new when I listen to her.
I remember some warnings in there about going straight from a high oxylate diet to a low or no oxylate diet because of the body dumping oxylates.
Anyone have any experience of this?
I guess it’s something we should warn the carnivore curious, maybe especially if coming from straight keto because of the heavy use of almond flours, milks, and high oxylate greens.
I wonder if a lot of the discomfort of some peoples’ transition and adaptation could just be the body detoxing from oxylate.

Apologies if this was already addressed earlier in the thread as I haven’t read through every post.


#26

There is also a great two-parter on human performance outliers podcast, #99 and 100.

I have noticed some symptoms mentioned (peeling hands, eye crusties), maybe some others but I wasnt paying attention to them as oxalate dumping.


(Elizabeth Stern) #27

We’ve discussed this in a couple groups, and I’m not really sure what the answer is. It seems to be a trade-off, yes you might reduce some of the discomfort, again there’s no guarantee because switching from glycolytic to lipolytic is an energy expensive process, but once you know about the toxins in plants why would you want to continue one more day eating them?. It also doesn’t guarantee you would minimize adaptation symptoms, it might just drag them out. Most people once they learn about them, unless they’re looking to continue their carb addiction or chocolate or whatever it is they’re hooked on, are very happy to drop everything immediately. so my answer is, I don’t know what the answer is. :slight_smile: