Oxalate dumping symptoms investigation on a carnivore dietary trial

[FrankoBear]

Continuing the discussion from Chia seeds:

Chia seeds

Dear Bunny, n=1. Between 10 and 21 days in to a ketocarnivore dietary experiment, repeated 3 times now, I get the constellation of symptoms described in oxalate dumping: heart arrhythmia crusty eyes teeth pain pin point red dots on hands and feet that change to peeling skin pins and needles pain in fingers and toes cloudy urine lower back pain occasional feet cramps on the plantar surface and hand cramping (the claw) episodic malaise despite maintaining nutritional ketosis I note with inte…

Oxalates and possible reason some people get sick on carnivore

I am a repeat oxalate dumper. Currently failing (only mildly) in another thread on a carnivore challenge. Unlike @ctviggen Bob, my Keto diet was heavy in spinach, brassicas, almonds, pine nuts, turmeric, almond milk, coffee and dark chocolate. It’s not now. I got caught in a spiral at one stage. Having diagnosed a magnesium deficiency in my response to Keto, I ate more nuts and leafy greens . Even partaking in a regular green spinach based smoothie (idiot) that endeared me to the …

This proves it. Keto is terrible

Phytates?

@atomicspacebunny

[FrankoBear]

Don’t want the innocent chia seeds to get caught up in the discussion.

Chia seeds

I will give an example on what I think occurs, your going to get oxalates and lectins from that meat your eating even more so from bone broth, your own body makes lectins and oxalates also. If you ever have taken antibiotics in your life then you won’t be breaking down oxalates or lectins. It takes a long-time to build that back up. Everything your describing above is because of the highly acid environment the meat only diet is creating in your entire body e.g. if you have clogged arteries a…

Thanks @atomicspacebunny Bunny.

I understand that hydrogen ions are actively secreted in urine in a carnivorous diet, creating a lower pH urine and acidic environment conducive to the formation of calcium oxalate crystals in the urinary tract.

There also is the risk of overwhelming the alkaline buffering system when oxalates (oxalic acid) are dumped from quiescent storage in body tissues.

But my understanding is that there is tight physiological regulation via the kidneys and respiratory system to maintain the circulatory pH in a very tight range, which would make persistent acidosis quite unlikely.

It would be interesting if a metabolic acidosis resulted in the dissolution of atherosclerotic calcification and the removal of bone spurs in arthritic joints, or hopefully bony exostoses causing deafness in swimmers. Surely that is of benefit before bones become brittle from leached calcium?

But my understanding of osteoporosis was that it was not a demineralisation problem, but more a loss of the protein based matrix that holds the mineral conglomerate together?

So we haven’t yet had a meeting of minds on our disparate ideas. But I do like the ideas and the thinking.

So, do you not think that the symptoms listed here and in the literature (mainly in nephrology articles) are due to oxalate dumping, but are further upstream due to a metabolic acidosis that may be carnivore diet in origin?

[PetaMarie]

I’m really hoping for this one, @FrankoBear. (Had rooting, but then I learned what it means in Australia.)

[FrankoBear]

What Did You Learn Today - 2020 version

I still worry about the highly acidic environment?

Bunny. I went back to my human physiology text book.

Guyton and Hall Textbook of Medical Physiology

This acid thing is interesting but, unfortunately, I’ve heard too many yoga pontificators pushing the alkalinisation of “the body”.

The pH (aka. the acidity) of the body tissues and the serum is tightly regulated by buffers. The buffer system reacts within seconds to control the body and serum pH within very tight limits.

We see effects of this control in an acidotic state by excretion of hydrogen ions in the urine, creating an acidic urine pH. Urine being outside of the circulation but bagged up inside the body ready for excretion. And we blow off more carbon dioxide from our respiratory system.

The acidic effects of a carnivorous diet are temporal. The acidic urine is manifest postprandial/ after the meal. Just as a postprandial ‘alkaline tide’ occurs in a carbohydrate foods based diet.

The body and the serum remain at the set pH. The acid “environment” does not seem to persist for more than a few seconds. But I’m not sure exactly where the acid environment is located. Just know it’s not in the blood serum or tissues.

But I’m down here rummaging around in mechanisms. I’m sure the discussion is more nuanced.

Especially in view of physiological medical conditions such as ketoacidosis and the lactic acidosis of physical exertion.

Tell me more about the acid state, and if it’s constant or tidal.

[atomicspacebunny]

The acidic effects of a carnivorous diet are temporal. The acidic urine is manifest postprandial/ after the meal. Just as a postprandial ‘alkaline tide’ occurs in a carbohydrate foods based diet.

The body and the serum remain at the set pH. The acid “environment” does not seem to persist for more than a few seconds.

Temporal and few seconds? If the phosphorus in your bones are being used to neutralize/buffer/counter act (“alkaline tide”) the acidic environment then what?

But I’m not sure exactly where the acid environment is located. Just know it’s not in the blood serum or tissues.

But I’m down here rummaging around in mechanisms. I’m sure the discussion is more nuanced.

Especially in view of physiological medical conditions such as ketoacidosis and the lactic acidosis of physical exertion.

Tell me more about the acid state, and if it’s constant or tidal.

More to it than just the holistic guru ideas of alkalinizing the body.

I wonder about this to and if your eating only meat long-term you may want to have your ALP levels checked (normal levels are 39-117) sometimes just to be sure?

Grass fed: meat, butter and Parmesan cheese, fermented cheeses may be even better because the higher vitamin K content? (to get the calcium back in your bones if you are a strict meat eater, you may need to loosen the strictness of your plight?)

Footnotes:

[1] Are long term high-protein diets harmful Dr. Jason Fung: Hard to say. There is some suggestion that high animal protein intake may cause osteoporosis. Many of these proteins are acidic, which require neutralization in the body. This acid is buffered in the bones and then eventually the acid is excreted as phosphoric acid. Because bone consists of Calcium bound to phosphorus there is extra calcium which gets excreted in the urine. This leads to higher urinary calcium losses and potentially osteoporosis. …More

[2] What would cause liver enzymes to be elevated? If these results are normal and your alkaline phosphatase levels are high, it may mean the problem is not in your liver. Instead, it can indicate a bone disorder, such as Paget’s Disease of Bone, a condition that causes your bones to become abnormally large, weak, and prone to fractures . …More

[3] Alkaline phosphatase (ALP) is an enzyme found in several tissues throughout the body. The highest concentrations of ALP are present in the cells that comprise bone and the liver. Elevated levels of ALP in the blood are most commonly caused by liver disease or bone disorders. …” …More

[4] ”…Saliva production is the exocrine function of the salivary glands. The buffering capacity of saliva is critical to neutralizing the oral environment. This minimizes the de-mineralization of enamel and enhances its re-mineralization. K2, such as that found in fermented cheese, improves salivary buffering through its influence on calcium and inorganic phosphates secreted. Data collected from several selected primitive cultures on the cusp of civilization demonstrated the difference in dental health due to diet. …More

[5] “…Alkaline phosphatases are present in many human tissues, including bone, intestine, kidney, liver, placenta and white blood cells.[2] Damage to these tissues causes the release of ALP into the bloodstream. Elevated levels can be detected through a blood test. Elevated alkaline phosphate is associated with certain medical conditions[3] or syndromes (e.g., hyperphosphatasia with mental retardation syndrome, HPMRS). It serves as a significant indication for certain medical conditions, diseases and syndromes. …” …More

[6] Phosphorus In The Blood And Urine: A Study Of The Excretion And Retention Of Phosphorus In A Normal Subject And In Patients With Renal Disease

[7] “…What is being tested? Phosphorus is a mineral that combines with other substances to form organic and inorganic phosphate compounds. The terms phosphorus and phosphate are often used interchangeably when talking about testing, but it is the amount of inorganic phosphate in the blood that is measured with a serum phosphorus/phosphate test. Phosphates are vital for energy production, muscle and nerve function, and bone growth. They also play an important role as a buffer, helping to maintain the body’s acid-base balance. …More