Oxalates and possible reason some people get sick on carnivore

#29

Lemon water is not hard to drink. It is a suggested prophylactic to limit calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. That kidney stone formation is a downstream potential. But lemon water is not a cure, not even symptomatic, for the other symptoms of oxalate dumping. Those occur further upstream in the problem.

Oxalate problem not fully solved. Thanks for trying.

Are you suggesting adding an acid to a mythical acid body environment?* Doesn’t acid urine provide the environment for calcium oxalate stone formation? (It does).

*It’s OK @atomicspacebunny Bunny, just ribbing you. I understand that citric and acetic acids are very mild acids that do not add to metabolic acidosis, and might even prompt a chain of biochemistry to enhance internal pH buffers.

The current way to limit oxalate dumping symptoms appears to be a weaning method, to gradually remove oxalate containing foods from the diet over time. Going carnivore definitely does not do that as it is a no oxalate diet started suddenly and that initiates the oxalate dumping for some people.

There may be some chelation protocols for interested experimenters that could be seen as overdosing micronutrients (metal ions) to the more cautious.

But where I reckon i could get the best feedback from you, dear Bunny, is if you have any info on whether sequestered oxalates are actually dangerous to health? Sally K Norton certainly suggests we are better rid of them, but that may not be a practical process, if it requires injury to do so.

#30

Sometimes not most. There is a range suggested by this study. It’s informative that water soluble oxalate is the more troublesome oxalate form that could be absorbed.

I wonder if cooking in cream may be even more effective? With the available dairy calcium binding up any molecules retained? But to be safe the cream liquid would need to be discarded?

Why do we want spinach anyway. The iron is bound by the phytic acid and is not bioavailable. What other nutritional benefits are there in this leafy green?

#31

Spinach is tasty and green, and alkalinizing due to minerals. I love it wilted with eggs or meats, French style.

Yes, eating it with dairy does bind oxalic acid due to calcium. You can cook with dairy or just eat it on the same plate with cottage cheese, raw cheese, etc from what I understand.

(Recently I learned that because of rampant calcium deficiencies in the SAD body, supplementing with highly assimable, quality coral calcium is really impt for Vit. D synthesis and other things. I don’t know how long it takes a modern person in industrial society to repair their bodies’ calcium levels with LCHF/keto… that might be discussed in Cate Shanahan’s Deep Nutrition book)

#32

Where is it sourced?

#33

Senior chemist and researcher Robert Barefoot recommends the non-fossilized, broken coral recently harvested - from top quality producers as there are lots of adulteration issues with talc as a replacement etc.

This is the type I’ve taken in the past, a bottle lasts for years at the rate I take it!

They also now make it in capsules too I see.

#34

Cate Shanahan agrees that one must enjoy their vegetables to eat them. She advocates slathering them in butter. :slightly_smiling_face:

This alkalinity claim needs more backing, I think. @atomicspacebunny Bunny has been looking at the other end of it with the alleged acidifying of the carnivore diet.

Many vegetables themselves when tested for pH are alkaline. But that does not transfer directly to human body alkalinity especially in the circulatory or body tissue compartments. Fair enough that muscles can generate their own lactic acid with exercise but that is buffered rapidly if it gets into circulation.

Foods don’t seem to make any difference to the blood and body tissue pH. In fundamental physiology the pH is so tightly controlled.

Urine pH varies as a downstream response to the buffering system. But urine could be argued as external to the body. It’s just contained in a bag ready for excretion.

So, I need these ‘body acidifiers and alkalinisers’ more clearly explained to me. It’s very interesting because the acidity and alkalinity extension is rapidly applied to cancer. Does that stem from cell culture studies?

#35

Anna Cabeca MD’s Keto Green approach (in her book The Hormone Fix) is all about de-acidifying the GI tract to aid in cortisol reduction and mineralizaiton - particularly for females - and Louise Gittleman PhD in Radical Metabolism also advocates same. I notice a distinct benefit from a plate 2/3 with cooked veg.

Daily lemon water/ACV routines also work to alkalinize, esp when taken 2-3x day.

Urine pH strips may in fact be more entertaining than ketostix.

#36

Ahhhh. Bingo! It’s a anatomical geography detail.

Yep, yep, yep, I can understand that. The GI tract is outside the body and the pH is manipulable. So the cancer thing might be also pertaining to GI cancers. And maybe Bunny has been trying to teach me about pH in the intestines? @atomicspacebunny.

Thanks Mary. I am a dum dum.

#37

You’re welcome. I’m always learning as I go forth in LCHF/keto biology & physiology. Being that we are 65% water, the full range of minerals well absorbed can have quite a positive impact.

#38

rip the darn bandaid off fast. then find that underneath the wound needs time to heal in the light and air, which is great nutrition, protein and fat heals :slight_smile:

always remember people are not sick ‘on carnivore’, they are sick from detoxing and what the body requires to heal from the other crap food in their lives, paired with medical situations and more factors obviously…so…just a reminder of it all that when we do a full elimination menu like carnivore, you find out truly when you add back in foods what they do to your personal body.

(Edith) #39

Yeah, that doesn’t work for everyone. Oxalate dumping can be quite severe and even life threatening for some.

#40

agreed definitely. I am just saying that many can do it but won’t ever go there. Can’t handle ANY type of change when it comes to ‘adaption’ one must endure thru menu change.

but I agree with you on that…it isn’t quite one size fits all but there are some exceptions where it truly won’t fit.

#41

I ripped that bandaid off 3 times to test the repeatability of symptoms. One time I ended up in hospital. The other two times I was about to drive in. But things corrected with at home treatments. 7 to 10 days in to strict carnivore brings me undone with oxalate dumping symptoms. Dirty carnivore is a bit more sustainable and weaning off plants slowly.

The low oxalate approach trumps total carnivore (n=1) at the moment. But I’m finding my way there through the challenges and am currently more carnivore, very carnivore adjacent, than on my first go. So I’m getting there to see what it’s like.

I get what you say @Fangs. That “all in” approach worked well for starting Keto, and may well work for a high percentage of people having a go at carnivore.

#42

stay dirty as it suits you personally FB! I get that!!!

(Edith) #43

Ah… do you listen to the Peak Human podcast?

(Bunny) #44

If you had the proper gut microbiome (oxalabacter formigenes) I don’t think you would have to gradually remove or dump anything?

Sally likes to ignore (a cherry picker?) the fact that the proper microbiome (lactobacillus and formigenes) creates the enzymes that breakdown oxalates even exists? You aren’t going do that eating only meat and water? That is why I eat resistant starch (an oxalate oooh OMG) with my meat and raw most of the time!

That’s problem with these carnivore gurus they ignore and cherry pick the research and gloss right over any suggestions that they are wrong which is what they turn around and accuse other people of doing? = junk pseudo science?

Footnotes:

[1] Oxalobacter formigenes is an oxalate-degrading anaerobic bacterium that colonizes the large intestines of numerous vertebrates, including humans. O. formigenes and humans share a beneficial symbiosis. The broad-spectrum quinolone antibiotics kill O. formigenes. …More

[2] “…formigenes and L. acidophilus, can degrade large amounts of oxalate, while others, such as L. Lactobacillus acidophilus increases the expression of the oxalate -degrading genes, oxc and frc, when the pH increases from 4.5 to 5.5, but expression is reduced at a pH of 6.8 [84]. …” …More

#45

The second paper is really good. It brings together some things we’ve been investigating.

Gut pH, especially in the colon, affects the oxalate break down by a number of bacteria species. It is also the major site of absorption of intact, unbound oxalic acid. The bacterial species include probiotic formulae species such as Lactobacillus and Acidophilus, so it opens the research path as to whether those probiotics persist through the stomach to reach and survive in the colon?

The fluquinalone effect on killing Oxalobacter is interesting for an anecdote. When I had kidney pain in 2017 the primary care doctor prescribed antibiotics for a urinary tract infection. They were fluquinalones. That may have exacerbated the problem and increased the risk of the calcium oxalate kidney stone that formed. They are the only antibiotics I’ve had recently. Previous to that I’ve taken penicillins for various animal bites and resultant infections. I got to stop patting every critter I meet.

The colon pH for optimal oxalate breaking down activity for Oxalobacter appears to be quite alkaline of around 6.5? I wonder if that is where fibrous vegetables and the resistant starches play their role in creating that pH?

In a more acidic upper colon niche of pH 4.5 to 5.5 Lactobacillus and Acidophilus have their greatest oxalate breaking down activity? I think those two bacteria may be associated with digesting dairy based foods? So I wonder if there is an oxalate defence double whammy of dairy calcium binding the oxalate in the gut and also feeding those gut bacteria that have oxalate break down capacity?

I reckon my Oxalobacter took a hit in 2017 and I’m still paying for that. Also attempting clean carnivore without dairy takes away another oxalate barrier.

So I might try a form of carnivore that includes probiotic dairy foods as I gradually wean off the higher oxalate foods.(But Bunny fig season starts next month!). If I’m going to be a dirty carnivore, or a dirty Keto omnivore, I’ll look at testing n=1 some resistant starch to see what happens with my nutritional ketosis goals.

Cool stuff @atomicspacebunny. Dang my improper gut biome snow flakiness. Maybe a series of poo tests are in order to see if there are any Oxalobacter?

I’ll aim for a Colon of Dreams, build it and they will come.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #46

#47

Maybe. (Brian is in my head. It’s that laid back Hawaiian Californian accent).

#48

The above graphic is misleading, as lemon juice and ACV are acid outside the body but become alkaline in their corrective/balancing role within the body’s internal pH environment, once they’ve been fully metabolized and their minerals are dissociated in the bloodstream their effect is alkalizing and therefore raise the pH of the body to above 7, which is alkaline. They have a negative PRAL (Potential Renal Acid Load) score, whereas positive score foods are acid-forming (as in all animal flesh and products, which points to benefits of fasting for carnivores). https://www.clinicaleducation.org/documents/revised-summary-pral-list.pdf

Coral calcium is mineral rich and directly alkalinizing, as is mineral exudate/pitch collected from high elevations in the Himalayas and Andes (called shilajit or mumijo, the culmination of hundreds to millions of years of organic matter decomposition, loaded with humic and fulvic acids , trace minerals as well as amino acids!). Mineral-rich ancient cave salts (mineral salts) aren’t directly alkaliizing but they do help remove acidic toxins from the body so are indirectly alkalinizing.

There’s a descriptor word for that alkalinizing action characteristic of certain foods, it’s escaping me at the moment - but it’s a known phenom in functional medicine and natural healing. (Anna Cabeca MD and Louise Gittelman PhD are recent voices on the importance of reducing acidity in the body via veg/fruit and intermittent fasting).