October 2022 IF/EF Chat Thread (All welcome)

#21

I have no idea about my ketones but I never had higher energy when fasted or doing keto, not even for the first time. I had some mild euphoria for the first time (not counting my “zeroeth” when I felt so bad that I quickly quit and didn’t try again for years), that was fun but only had it once…
Maybe longer term carnivore will help. I started to feel some improvement at some point so I am hopeful.

It’s probably very individual (not even the same for the same person) which day is worst but for me it’s usually the second - and the third is usually impossible but if I can do it, it’s fine. The first 24 hour is normal to me, I am used to 18-23 hour fasts and usually eat without serious hunger in the end of them, could wait more.
More precisely, the beginning and the end of the second day is the worst as I am in my natural fasting window in the middle. Just because I do a longer fast, I don’t get hungry in the morning… Unless I went to sleep hungry but I never do that. That’s why a 36 hour fast is highly unrealistic to me. If I go over 28-32 hours (whenever I go to bed after my last meal for the second time), I am safe until about 45…

But it’s all history. I wonder when I will be able to fast longer again… Just for 2 days…

My only third day was pretty good if I remember correctly :slight_smile: Nothing special, just like a normal eating day, without the satiation only food can give. Not hungry anymore - but not hungry or even mentally hungry (I didn’t want food, per se, I just thought about it very much and strongly? it was strange) yet. But it changed. Many people say that the next days are okay too but it was a decline for me (well lack of sodium kicked in, too bad I can’t do it again, with supplementing salt to figure out what happens). And on the 5th day I got hungry and ate a tiny bit and it was the end.

I really shouldn’t write about my single longer fast this many times… I will try to do something about my mental state to do some proper EF again.

Nowadays I just do IF but sometimes my eating window is smallish, about 3.5 hours :slight_smile: I get this length when I eat lunch and dinner and that’s pretty normal in my life.

(Becky S.) #22

UGH, I just couldn’t make it. Thanks for the insight!!! Next time maybe I will curl up in a ball and keto on…

(Becky S.) #23

Thank you @Shinita. It is still nice to hear the struggles of others with this sometimes. I find there are many people for whom the fasting is no struggle at all and I just dream about food the whole time, not necessarily hungry but might as well be.

(Becky S.) #24

That’s an interesting thought about ketone levels Bob M! May have to do more N=1 experimenting. I also don’t have a lot of weight to loose and I guess it could be my body telling me it likes things where they are. Very mysterious it is!

Appreciate the comments!

(Bob M) #25

It may also be that maybe fasting for you is not what you need now. Not everyone needs to fast. You can come pretty close eating keto (or carnivore) with an eating window of, say, 10 hours. And if you can’t make 10 hours, then maybe that’s not for you yet.

I did not start fasting until I was at least 18 months into keto. In my case, it was because fasting and Dr. Fung became the rage back then. Before that, though, I wasn’t fasting at all, was eating breakfast, lunch, dinner, even between meals. I still lost weight and I’m sure was correcting some of the damage I’d done.

I still try to fast 1 36 hour fast a week, though I’m averaging about 1 every two weeks. I’d like to do another 4.5 day fast at some point. But I do this because fasting makes everything a bit easier: I don’t have to plan for any meals. I get more done during the day without eating. And I give my body a break from digesting. Hopefully, I’m doing something helpful to the biome.

But I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary.

(nutmegs) #26

Many people seem to mix kept and fasting, and it works for them. I think everyone is so different, and our bodies and lives so complex, that it’s often best to just figure out what works well for you.

I find keto incredibly difficult, but love IF and see more results and feel better on it.

#27

In some sense I never struggle. I never do eating things hard so whenever I get annoyingly hungry (I mean I have some soft cute hunger that I like and doesn’t want to eat when I have it) or tempted, I eat right away :slight_smile: Fasting should be the easier way, something enjoyable if it’s about me.
So all my fasts are easy but I can’t decide to do a longer one and make it happen at all. But it’s not so bad. I won’t give up so when my body will be on board, hopefully my mind will be ready too. I really like to eat…

So I don’t dream about food when fasting as I don’t want food (I am usually perfectly satiated when I fast, it’s cool. if I CAN eat, I usually do, I say sometimes… I don’t need hunger for not being able to fast) but I do think and read and write about food any time. It’s a nice topic… Maybe if I wouldn’t be like this, it would be easier…? Nay, that feels very different from my body wanting food…

By the way, dreaming. It’s strange that I almost never dreamed about food in my life. Despite thinking about it very much when awake… But maybe not strange, I never dreamed about maths problems, singing or programming either… Not even music… And I rarely remember my dreams anyway. And I had 2-3 food dreams, after all, it’s just quite few compared to my relationship with food :slight_smile: I am glad I don’t have carby nightmares, I only had one subtle one and it was awful even after woken. I did carnivore at that time and totally didn’t miss carbs, if I miss them or not but they are around me in a time limited manner and they are tasty, I typically eat them. Stupid dreams. My mind could conjure ANYTHING, something highly entertaining, inspiring, helpful but no…

That definitely doesn’t help with fasting… I already don’t have enough extra fat for longer fasts according to a formula - but I experienced that the formula doesn’t work for me, it didn’t do it even on high-carb. And I do have lots of extra fat just not sooo much so I probably can’t expect easy long fasts, good thing I only want 2-3 days but why they can’t happen…? My body is VERY insistent at getting its daily food, you don’t argue with your body with all the power to get away important functions (not the ones needed for life, my body isn’t suicidal but it can make my life unacceptable for a hedonist until I eat. or until it realizes its temper tantrum is ineffective. if I CAN’T eat for some reason, it’s fine, if I am VERY determined, it is still okay but if there is chance for me changing my mind… my body is smart, well my brain is part of it… :wink: too bad we don’t fully agree about everything. mostly but not completely).

Today I go for a very small eating window. Yesterday was 3MAD, 5 hours eating window. It’s hard to have 1-2 meals when I do carnivore with leaner food. But today I have something fattier so I may be able to eat bigger meals. Or ideally one. Except my coffees, they weren’t black, I will stop that.

I am totally with @ctviggen, not everyone need fasting. Many ketoers push the thing, talk about fasting like it’s necessary or inevitable, you eat keto and then you just eat in a small window… No, not everyone is like that and it’s fine.
I am a natural IFer, I did it WAY before keto, without knowing about IF itself :smiley: I just did it as the only thing I can do… Keto made my eating window a bit smaller but OMAD doesn’t come naturally and carnivore made my eating window bigger again but it varies. I personally do whatever feels nice or right. If I have tiny meals, I can’t avoid having many of them as I can’t function without my minimum protein and energy intake. People like me should be flexible. I only fight against the stupid habits like night eating without a need. And if there is a need, I should find the way to eat enough during the day. But if I didn’t do that and I am hungry at midnight, the best thing I can do to eat then. It’s me, it might be not right for others (like all the people who are asleep then. no way I go to bed THAT early. 1am is a challenge enough and I am very pleased when I can do that :smiley: I went to bed way later for a long time).

I don’t have these reasons, I want autophagy :smiley: And I am curious, I want to see what happens when I don’t eat, can I do it like years ago? I should have! I like challenges but fasting is quite nice when it happens… I don’t want it often, it is strange for me to skip a day, it would be nice to do a bit longer fasts, 48 hour is nice but I know how that feel. Third, forth day, it’s different and I only had one so long fast, ages ago. I am very curious what would happen now, how I would feel, what I would want to eat when refeeding… But even with my curiosity I can’t not eat when I get weak, dizzy and hungry…

(Bob M) #28

I think keto and fasting work well together because you’re already in ketosis. If you eat a high carb diet, you have to get into ketosis via fasting. There may be some people who can do that, but judging by the many people who have issues transitioning to keto, it’s probably not a lot.

Though it would be interesting to test someone who follows the Muslim faith, when they fast during the day. Do they transition at all into ketosis?

@Shinita You go to bed at 1am? What time are you up?

I think autophagy is a good goal, although supposedly things like exercise can help with that. I usually exercise after 32 hours of fasting, and I’ve always wondered if that really does help.

#29

Ketosis doesn’t seem to matter to my fasting. Longer fasts (and sometimes even a small eating window on IF) get significantly harder as I lower my carbs - because I typically eat smaller meals then and it doesn’t matter much that my hunger is softer, I still need to eat when it comes. With exceptions, I have these changes and phases, sometimes I wait and my hunger goes away, it’s very odd as it normally doesn’t work like this, my hunger got worse and worse, ketosis and fat adaptation did nothing to that if I remember correctly (it’s super rare to get hungry and not eating in my life so I have little experience with waiting). But lately my hunger can go away or stay tiny and soft for long… Or not and I get dizzy and unfocused. I never get a sharp, strong hunger anymore. That’s good. But I still can’t fast as well as I could on higher-carb :frowning:

There are high-carbers doing OMAD so short fasts aren’t a problem for some people on high-carb, it’s not just me. IF and EF are very different for me. IF is natural and even carnivore allows that, even OMAD has a slim chance there while it gets super easy with much carbs. EF and me, that’s a very occasional thing but it spontaneously happened on high-carb, took effort on my original, carbier keto and I just can’t do it near/on carnivore. But it never was something I can just decide and do it surely. I needed effort, mental preparation and I still had a serious chance of failure. Except the spontaneous fasts but I don’t have those anymore.

@ctviggen: I am up around 8-8:30am on good days. But bad days tend to happen only when I mess up my sleep lately (i.e. I wake up at night and can’t go back to sleep right away. It usually only happens if I fall asleep in front of my computer, on my comfy sleeping bag. I am very good at sleeping my 7-9 hours uninterrupted when I managed to fall asleep in my bed. As falling asleep isn’t as easy as it was, it’s one reason I can’t even try to go to bed early. I need to be properly tired.)
I never was up earlier in my life except when I had to go to school. That was horrible.

Exercise is basic, I do that. You say it’s useful after a bit longer fast…? I wonder if I have enough energy for it then… I always felt most energy to do it when I was in my 18th-20th or so hour. Even walking doesn’t work well when “too much” time passed, I get hungry in the beginning and starve during my walk, maybe it changed but I had that a lot in the past. But that is for skipping my first meal, maybe if I already skipped that and my exercise is at the right time, it works? I planned to try that out but I seemingly lost my ability to fast longer at that point. I could try to exercise around 40 hours… 32 hour happens when I sleep or right before. And I never do my workout in the morning as I am a weak zombie then. I kind of plan to try that soon though as my morning state improved somewhat.

But I need to be able to fast for longer than a day first and that didn’t happen since years.

Today I had a huge eating window, about 8 hours. I am determined to skip lunches again (unless I am really hungry). I have experience with that, it can’t be too hard, no matter how nice is the siren song of eating my first meal at 3pm… OMAD sized meals would help.

(Michael) #30

The concept that blood sugars rise while exercising is well known. I believe, but have not had time to check sources, that it is also well understood that in the long term, people who exercise have better/lower blood sugars. If you want to prove exercise has a long term effect, you would have to keep diet identical and test with CGM for a period weeks after regular exercise and then a second set weeks after not exercising with very little changes otherwise. I cannot fathom a pathway whereby exercising would raise blood sugars long term or how that would make any sense from an evolutionary perspective. Exercise helps improve insulin resistance, utilizes excess energy within the body and promotes health otherwise such as lower blood pressure and heart rate. Or at least that what I thought.

(KCKO, KCFO) #31

On my old higher carb diet, I was hungry ALLLLLL the time. Even now if my first meal of the day is the higher carb meal, not just zero carbs, I will get hungry through out the day. I start my day with meat and eggs and I am good. I’m still doing the timed eating window protocol and as long as I have enough fat in my last meal, I can easily go to the next morning. I didn’t do that the other day and ended up with a snack late in the evening.

(Michael) #32

October has passed, and I completed a full month of fasting every M, W and F. Here are my numbers (some of the morning measurements are high due to physical activity or heat), or at least those I measured/recorded. I added food on the days I ate, broken down in grams for each macro.

date time glucose ketone GKI Weight (in pounds) BP Hours into Fast Food in grams (p/f/c)
1-Oct-22 8:45 AM 5.6 128.2 36
1-Oct-22 10:15 PM 5.0 132.4 1 285.5/287.5/15.5
2-Oct-22 8:05 AM 5.4 130.6 11
2-Oct-22 11:15 PM 6.1 133.4 89/56/54 2 299/250/26.7
3-Oct-22 8:05 AM 5.5 131.4 11
3-Oct-22 9:15 AM 6.8 131.4 12
3-Oct-22 10:15 PM 4.7 130.4 26
4-Oct-22 8:05 AM 4.9 129.4 35
4-Oct-22 11:55 PM 5.6 132.4 2 312.8/275.5/25.1
5-Oct-22 8:05 AM 5.1 131.2 11
5-Oct-22 8:45 AM 5.9 130.6 12
5-Oct-22 10:15 PM 4.8 0.6 8.00 130.4 25
6-Oct-22 8:05 AM 4.9 0.6 8.17 129.2 35
6-Oct-22 11:15 PM 6.2 0.3 20.67 132.8 0 254.7/260.9/19.1
7-Oct-22 8:35 AM 5.5 1.8 3.06 130.6 9
7-Oct-22 10:45 PM 4.8 1.2 4.00 130.4 24
8-Oct-22 7:45 AM 4.5 0.9 5.00 129.6 35
8-Oct-22 11:45 PM 5.4 0.3 18.00 132.4 100/56/50 1 295.5/273.1/17.7
9-Oct-22 7:45 AM 5.2 2.9 1.79 131.2 10 288.9/286.8/18.6
10-Oct-22 7:45 AM 6.2 1 6.20 131 10
10-Oct-22 11:45 PM 4.4 0.7 6.29 130.4 26
11-Oct-22 9:45 AM 6.0 0.5 12.00 128.8 36
11-Oct-22 10:45 PM 5.4 0.01 540.00 130.8 0 333.3/295.6/10.9
12-Oct-22 7:45 AM 6.4 0.5 12.80 129.8 103/62/62 8
12-Oct-22 10:25 PM 5.1 0.3 17.00 130.8 23.5
13-Oct-22 8:45 AM 5.4 0.5 10.80 129 34
13-Oct-22 11:45 PM 5.0 0.2 25.00 132.4 1 307/346.2/9
14-Oct-22 8:15 AM 5.7 1.4 4.07 130.8 10
14-Oct-22 11:45 PM 4.8 0.3 16.00 129.6 25
15-Oct-22 7:45 AM 5.1 0.4 12.75 128.8 34 310.3/298.7/14.1
16-Oct-22 7:45 AM 7.0 1.9 3.68 131.4 8 307.7/274.1/7.4
17-Oct-22 9:15 AM 5.8 0.1 58.00 11
17-Oct-22 10:15 PM 4.6 0.2 23.00 132 24
18-Oct-22 11:15 AM 5.8 0.4 14.50 37 311.6/304.1/13.7
19-Oct-22 10:15 PM 4.9 0.6 8.17 24
20-Oct-22 9:15 AM 5.9 0.9 6.56 128.4 35 258.1/249.6/9.7
21-Oct-22 8:15 AM 6.0 0.6 10.00 130 10
21-Oct-22 10:45 PM 4.6 0.5 9.20 128.6 25
22-Oct-22 7:15 AM 4.9 0.8 6.13 126.6 33 262.8/248.7/7.7
23-Oct-22 10:15 AM 7.2 0.3 24.00 128.8 12 266.8/274.6/13
25-Oct-22 11:45 AM 7.3 0.2 36.50 39 265.9/262/9.6
26-Oct-22 11:15 PM 4.4 0.9 4.89 127.6 26
27-Oct-22 11:15 AM 5.1 1.3 3.92 126 38 289.2/288/9.2
28-Oct-22 7:15 AM 7.6 0.5 15.20 127.6 10
28-Oct-22 10:45 PM 5.9 0.9 6.56 126.4 26
29-Oct-22 8:15 AM 5.7 1.3 4.38 125.2 35 351.3/292.2/12.9
30-Oct-22 9:15 AM 7.0 0.4 17.50 127.4 12 248.6/286.9/8.7
31-Oct-22 7:15 AM 6.1 1.5 4.07 127 9
31-Oct-22 10:45 PM 4.1 0.4 10.25 126.4 94/60/54 26
#33

Yay you! I … did not reach my goals.

There is always November …

(Robin) closed #34