Noob trying IF with too many unanswered questions

(John) #1

Hi, I am new here and have been researching the different threads for answers to some of my questions but just cant seem to find the specific answers that I am looking for.

Just to get the initial information out there that might be needed to answer some questions, I am 48 years old and currently 215 lbs. I have been on a strict keto diet since the 1st of Jan this year and have been keeping the net carbs below 20 g a day but usually half of that. I started at 232 lbs on the 1st. I exercise nearly everyday with a few 20 minute walks and usually a 30-50 minute strenuous hike. I have been keeping my max calories to 2000 a day. My fitbit charge 3 estimates I burn 3000-4000 calories a day. I know that they are not always that correct and usually overestimate calories burned. I have only been on Keto for 3 weeks now but have not cheated at all. I realize I probably am not fat adapted yet.

I started IF about 5 days ago on a 19/5 schedule. I will eat all my food between 2:30 pm and 7:30 pm.

I understand that you can IF as long as you want with no ill effects. While I have been on IF, I have only been eating about 1400 - 1600 calories a day with my carbs, protein, and fat being about 4%,26%, and 70% of my daily calorie intake.

I know this is a severe calorie restriction for me but I don’t feel hungry in the evening and don’t feel the need to eat until the next afternoon. I still feel like I have enough energy to hike the 1000 foot vertical hill I hike most days. Besides getting a little dizzy sometimes when I get up from sitting down I feel pretty good.

I am doing this keto diet and IF for the primary reason of loosing weight. My goal weight was 190 when I started but might extend that to 175.

My primary concern is will this calorie deficit reduce my metabolism? I have been reading to just eat when your hungry and don’t eat if your not but I don’t want to hurt my metabolism in the process of loosing weight. Should I be trying to eat more for my meal?

Sorry for the long winded first post. Any advice on my current practices will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
John

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

Long ago and far away a nun once told me that anything worth doing was worth doing fanatically. Did someone tell you the same?

I’ll let others more knowledgeable comment on your specific weight-loss questions. All I want to say is that most folks start on keto for a few months and then consider whether they need to extend it in other ways. They don’t just jump in with both feet, hoping to hit the ground running.

There are some big changes to your metabolism just by starting keto. I’d recommend letting some of that happen prior to restricting your eating window. Or do it more gently. Overnight, when you’re going to be sleeping 7-8 hours anyway, is a nice way to ‘ease into’ IF. Eat breakfast a little later and/or supper a little earlier and very quickly and easily you’re into a 12/12 IF schedule.

(Marianne) #3

Hello.

I am no scientist, however, I believe the answer to your question is yes.

It seems from your post that you are trying to accelerate your weight loss by fasting and exercise (?). If you are exercising because you enjoy it, that is great. I would just suggest that you up your calories. Whether you are exercising or not, for the first 4-6 weeks, I would suggest that you eat three ample meals a day (even if you never did before and don’t feel “hungry”). When I started, I also made sure to meet or exceed my fat and protein macros each day, while keeping the carbs bet. 10-15.

After this initial period when your body is adjusting, then you can start to incorporate IF.

Try to look at keto as a way of eating that you will be on long-term instead of a “diet,” although that is what got most of us here, including me. Your body is an amazing mechanism; give it time to adjust to your new way of eating gradually and appropriately. You have enjoyed a good weight loss up to now, but you don’t want your metabolism to slow. The beauty of keto is that you can eat hearty, delicious meals and still lose weight. This kept me satiated and content, free from hunger and/or cravings. If you get a chance, check out the thread “What Did You Keto Today” to get an idea of what folks are eating.

Best.

(John) #4

Thanks amwassil and gingersmommy for you comments and advise. I guess there were several things that I was trying to do with the jump in with both feet. I started the diet and did not have any ill effects for the first three weeks. Sure during the first week my legs were a little bit burned from my exercise but that went away in week two. I never did get the keto flue and if I did, I didn’t notice it. That is surprising because before the diet, I would have several to three cheese covered bagels every morning and never passed up a donut. I was a sugar burner for sure.

I was waiting for keto flue to kick in and ordered some urine ketone test strips at about week 1 1/2 into the diet. The test strips showed a level of 3-6 and Now seem to show high (4-8) in the early morning and about .5 to 1.5 by the end of my IR at about 2:30 pm. Not sure what that means besides maybe that I am a little less hydrated in the morning than I am mid day. Before the IF it was pretty constant about 4.0.

I am under a pretty strong personal opinion that keto or no keto, you still have to have a deficit to lose weight. I have lost a lot of weight in the past just by CICO but always pick back up the weight when I stopped counting calories. So I did a lot of research on the Keto diet and what it sounds like after reading about fasting is that the body will burn fat before muscle when it is low on insulin or sugars. Keto puts you into this situation of low sugars so fasting should just increase the time that you body has to burn body fat fuel instead of eaten fuel. I have been looking but cannot find any information about how much you can fast before your body starts to lower your metabolism. I read that while fasting, you body should not slow metabolism but instead it should increase. I also read that you do not need to be on the keto diet for fasting to work well. So doing the math, even though I might not be totally keto fat adapted yet, if I fast and keep my insulin and sugars down, then the body should look to body fat to burn when I have a shortage of calories.

I may be way off base here and this may all be wrong and maybe I got the wrong message because nothing spells it out exactly as a science. Maybe nobody really knows the right answers.

If the easing into the diet and fasting is just to make it easier on the person to prevent them from quitting, then that is not necessary for me. I assumed that with the lower calories, and extra exercise that my body would adapt faster since it does not have any other option. I don’t really like to exercise, heck it is a lot easier to sit on the couch and watch tv but I know that that is not healthy. I do like hiking and need to be ready for 12+ mile day hikes in the mountains on snow shoes 3 days a week by the middle of March. That is why I exercise so much now. If I am 30 lbs lighter in mid march then that makes a big difference in how much more energy I will have at the end of the day.

I can increase my food intake now but everything that I have read says to eat until your full and don’t eat if your not hungry. I still need to be in a 1500 calorie deficient per day to reach my 3 lbs a week weight loss so I can still eat 2000 calories a day to meet that goal.

The other question I had when I started was I know that you should get plenty of fat and protein to meet your daily macros, but do not go over you carbs. Does that mean you really don’t need them? What are they there for? Do you at least need a minimum of them or can you go as low as zero carbs some days?

I will check out that other thread about the keto meals. I am always finding more yummy things to eat every day besides bacon, avacados, eggs and cheese.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #5

There is zero need for carbs. There is no essential carbohydrate and no deficiency disease. Many folks eat zero carbs and many more eat less than 20 grams per day. 20 grams is just an arbitrary cutoff below which most people will remain in ketosis. My opinion is the fewer carbs you eat the better. Keeping both glucose and insulin low allows and encourages fat burn. We have an elegant mechanism called gluconeogenesis that synthesizes all the glucose we need for those cells and organs that require it. We do not need to eat it.

My opinion about calorie deficit is this. If you feel hungry most/all of the time, you need to eat more or you run the risk of slowing your metabolism. If you are hungry only before meals, that’s OK. It’s just the way your body says it’s time to eat - so eat until you’re not hungry. Eating fat, especially saturated fat, tends to increase your metabolism. Different macros are metabolized differently. The simple ‘calories in’ ‘calories out’ theory (CICO) ignores all that. Yes, if you want to metabolize body fat, you can eat less plate fat - as long as you don’t feel hungry doing it. Exercise does not seem to have much effect on weight loss, and in many cased interferes.

I think it’s a bit much to sustain a 3 pound weight loss per week for very long. The first week or two you lose a lot of water that was bound up with glucose and glycogen. That can be a lot more than you think, depending on your overall size and muscle mass. But once it’s mostly gone, weight loss generally slows. 1-2 pounds per week is sustainable long term and most folks report losses about on that level. You can also expect an occasional and temporary stall/plateau as other processes take precedence over weight loss.

Finally, keto tends to normalize metabolic processes. Excess weight is a symptom of metabolic problems. As the metabolic problems are resolved, the various symptoms, including excess weight, steadily go away. It may not happen as fast or as straight forward as you might wish. But it happens.

#6

The problem is we can’t have any idea about your energy need. That 3-4000 kcal estimation is just a guess though quite possible. If you feel right with your current food intake, that’s promising but that’s not necessarily reliable either, some people pretty easily undereat on keto and/or IF (some people on any woe if they are determined). I would be more pleased with the original, 2000 kcal intake but it’s really hard to say what is safe… If you lose weight too quickly in the future (the first weeks aren’t reliable due to water weight loss. I always lose it in the first days but I’ve heard the second week isn’t safe either. and anyway, our bodyweight fluctuates), try to eat more.
Why do you do IF if you don’t eat really much to begin with and it lowers your energy intake? For its other benefits? Lack of hunger?
But it was only 5 days. When I consciously (but my body was ready) diminished my eating window (to 1 hour as it was automatic until then) or did some other effective, drastic change, I barely could eat in the first few days, my body must have been confused but it went away. Maybe your eating will change too. Or do you enforce something? I just eat according to my hunger, appetite, need for fuel and let my macros do whatever they want. I planned sometimes but that was no rule. You don’t need to plan or focus on numbers on your ideal woe, at least longer term…
Hunger isn’t always reliable. I am very rarely hungry but if I undereat (rare but happens), some problems arise. But hunger seems to work for most people.

(Paulene ) #7

I had a very similar experience to you @flybyjohn esp. with the lack of appetite and low calories. I would have to force myself to eat and then feel sick. l was also very concerned about killing my metabolism.
I am no longer concerned about lower calories killing my metabolism, and here are my reasons:

  1. The Fast 800 program (Dr Michael Mosley of 5:2 fame) has conducted multiple studies on short-term calorie restriction- 800 calories per day for up to 12 weeks - without a drop in basal metabolic rate. He says that very low calorie diets (VLCD) do not work well long term but are effective as a kick-start.
  2. People on long-term VLCD do damage their metabolism… a la The Biggest Losers studies… but people who have bariatric surgery (eg gastric banding) do not experience a drop in metabolism even though their diet is VLCD. The difference is satiety. VLCD without satiety leads to metabolism slowdown. VLCD with satiety does not lead to metabolism slowdown.
  3. My weight loss remains fairly consistent (well, lets say it’s a dynamic equilibrium) regardless of calorie intake - no signs of metabolic slowdown as yet. But I am keeping watch, just in case.
#8

HI!!

Not good on this. Means you are in a bad zone but can easily correct. Eat more LOL
I am a vertical mountain trail hiker also. What do you have in your pack? I carry beef sticks, tuna in a pouch and some other stuff with me for eating cause I am never ‘sure’ if I might go down into low energy land. So I make sure I have what I need at all times with me on any hike.

now that aside you are doing well I think :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

DO NOT IF just yet. Just eat all the Keto on plan food you want. Just let the body direct you. When we start we learn so much of what a ‘pro’ can do cause they learned why they are doing it, they have been doing this for years, they know their own bodies and what suits them perfectly, but if a Noob starts ‘with all this info’ at the start, oh boy it can backfire on ya fast.

number 1 best advice is drop all your dieting baggage at the door. eat a super fun keto plan that suits you. eat any time on plan keto food you need and want at any time and if you don’t want it, don’t eat it :slight_smile:

Get your personal footing on what it takes for you at all times. Don’t put all what other’s do as too much of a comparison cause it can lead you in a wrong direction. Eat total carbs, in that 20 g range, get ya and keep you in ketosis…then eat or don’t eat as you need for as long as you feel just to get your keto plan in good hold for yourself.

drop all the baggage, eat well and good, don’t eat when you don’t want, be sure to not limit/restrict/IF thru true hunger and more. Eat the keto plan, bring food with ya on big hikes like I do and ya got it made in the shade I bet :slight_smile:

(John) #9

Thank you all for the advise and encouragement. I know the Keto is supposed to be a new way of life, not just a diet. I just am not sure right now if I want to make it much more than a way to lose the weight I need to in the three short months that I am aiming for. Maybe I will change my mind down the road but right now the goal is to just use anything and everything at my disposal to get to were I want to be by the end of March. My 36" pants were getting tight at the end of 2019 so I decided to get back on the wagon and lose some weight to get ready for early spring time hiking in the mountains.

If it is still too early to start IF then I can wait a little longer. I just wanted to use anything that would give me an advantage. From what I read, the longer you go in between meals, the more effective the body fat burning will be, especially if you exercise at the end of a fast.

I started the IF just for the reason of using every tool I had available to lose the most weight as quickly as possible. I was eating 2000 cal a day from the start of Keto. It wasn’t hard because breakfast alone gave me nearly 1000 calories. When I started IF, I just found out that the dinner that I had the night before left me pretty satisfied and I wasn’t starving in the morning and I could easily hold off until 2:30 to 3:00 to eat. I would eat something like a sausage link or a cheesy snack at 2:30 and was pretty good until dinner where I would eat the rest of my calories with my family. I would be very satisfied at about 1600 calories or less for the day and was just looking for something else I could eat just to add more calories. So I decided to just stop when I was full and even though the calories were lower than my plan 2000, they still seem to get me through to the next day at 2:30 without me feeling really hungry. I guess eating all the calories together within that 4 hour window kind of filled me up faster than if I were to eat them all day long. The one day I did eat all 2000 calories in that 4 hours, I kind of felt sick to my stomach.

Again, I thank you all for the advice, I need all I can get.

(Katie) #10

Welcome, I am glad that you are trying keto to improve your health!

First, I just want to address the dizziness. I am not an expert or a health professional, but that sounds to me like you need to get a better handle on your electrolytes. Have you increased your salt intake?

As for the metabolism: eating fewer calories for a long period of time will slow your metabolism. Becoming smaller also decreases your metabolism, naturally. Things that increase your metabolism are increased caloric intake and building muscle. With your walking and hiking, and a better quality of foods, you might add muscle.

If you are eating fewer calories for a while, you might experience days where you are naturally hungrier and want to eat more within your window. I do not think that it would be a bad thing if you did (within reason).

I hope that helps.

(John) #11

Fangs, right now I have a hill that is 975’ climb from the starting point, about 2.6 miles round trip. It is right behind my house so an easy hill to just jog, hike up for practice. I usually just go without pack because it only takes about 55 minutes round trip. Sometimes I make it to several peaks and extend it to a bit more than an hour and sometimes I just ditch the trail and go straight up to the top. It is training for my spring hikes in the mountains looking for elk sheds. I will put on 12-14 miles a day starting mid march and try to get out 3 times a week. I have never been on keto before on these hikes so I usually had high calorie/carb snack bars like Cliff bars. I would burn about 7500 calories a day on those hikes. I will have to look for some good keto friendly snack foods for the future hikes.

(John) #12

Thanks Pamplemousse, That is something that I keep forgetting to do. I have not really increased my salt intake and after a workout, I do thing that my muscles are telling me I need more salt. will start adding some more salt into my diet and I also thing I probably should be taking some supplements as well.

#13

Love it. I am so into mountain hikes and I thrive on them. That is a short hike cause I do like 6-7 mile hikes up the straight mountain trail to say a waterfall and stairs and more and just love it. I am a nature gal for sure but what you are doing is definitely a monster plus in your life. Great exercise, great mental clarity of enjoying it all in nature and just ‘moving’ to move and be taxing but what one needs is true nutrition to get just that in good form :slight_smile:

Always take a pack. All times. Put in the old knife you need for survivial :), bear spray (might or might not apply LOL) and always bring food on any hike. You are keto so you have options more than me being a carnivore plan person, but regardless of that depending on how are appetite is ‘this day’ and this ‘time thru the day’ we can go down faster than one would think so any and all trips bring protein. Forget those Cliff bars etc. Even if ya shove a homemade cheeseburger into your pocket from home into your pocket at least 1/2 way thru this hike adventure you can ‘eat’ cause ya want it, if not, don’t eat :slight_smile:

Yea I am one of prepared types cause I hike long and hard thru my days and I am a hiker thru and thru but once changing thru the hikes I realized I could get buy easily, but the ‘what if’ I get ‘whatever delayed’ comes into play since I do big hikes out there in no mans land.

Hey from what you do finding elk sheds I think at all times you need to make it more ‘about you’ and ‘survival at times on any hike’ and what food ya might require vs. just going for it and getting caught out there.

ahh, sorry me being a hiker like this I carry a pack at all times, even my hubby says, you bringing a pack for 4 mile round trip easy hike? and I am like, darn right I am!! and believe me he always uses something from my pack, my extra water or whatever and I say, SEE! LOL

I love this chat…but remember those ‘keto snacky foods’ are processed and a lot of times ‘mislabeld’ due to ‘they can get by’ with saying that labeling for manufacturers, so always go ‘real food’ by you :slight_smile:

fun chat

(Marianne) #14

I honestly don’t mean to be harsh, however, you seem to be discounting the suggestions that have been given by people who have successfully adopted this way of eating for a long time and know the science behind it. There are many learned members here who regularly post scientific facts regarding keto - how it’s done, metabolic process, sugar/carb addiction, cholesterol, diabetes, etc. I encourage you to check out dietdoctor.com. The content available to non-members is almost identical to that of members, without any obligation or giving out your personal information. They present the science in layman’s term. If you have time, check out the videos there. They are understandable and make sense.

Please know that I want so much for you to do well and discover what others have here. Keto can be one of the most enjoyable and easy things you can do. It results in weight loss and better metabolic and physical health.

I just feel a little sad when I see your responses that you are shooting yourself in the foot by hanging onto old preconceived notions you have from a long time of conventional dieting (most of us did).

Good luck, God bless, keep learning and continue posting!

:hugs:

#15

I started experimenting with fasting last spring. Mostly OMAD and a three day once. The main thing I got from fasting was finally developing a mindset that food should be based more on an as needed basis rather than eating out of habit. I usually OMAD during the week and try to up my calories on weekends to keep my body guessing.

#16

I want to see a waterfall but there are none here… Just very tiny ones a bit farther… I am a bit miserable when every game and many movies have waterfalls… Oh well.

Hiking is great, too bad I mostly just go for little walks nowadays (but I use my bicycle much more). I never did long ones, at most 8-10 hours only, in a comfortable pace. Before fat adaptation I needed some food but now I don’t. I love to be prepared, to be safe but if I reach the finish before evening, I won’t get really hungry.
But I never don’t burn 7500 kcal a day (I don’t know my numbers but they are surely way lower), John probably need way more food I do! And not everyone handles fasting and exercise the same way. I badly need a well-fasted state for hiking…

John, you can take whatever you can bring and eat cold. I would take eggs, smoked meat (probably fried), cheese. It was nuts before and when I was a high-carber, nuts and raisins. And whatever my go-to food was those times but I barely ate while hiking, I had my big meal afterwards. It’s obviously quite individual.

#17

I understand you better now.
If a tool works very well, you don’t need to add more, eating way too little can easily be a problem. It doesn’t work in a way that the less you eat, the more you lose, without a problem. There is an optimal fat-loss, if it’s too quick, that probably means significant muscle loss, metabolism slowing and it may backfire in interesting ways.
I would be very glad with 2000 kcal and unless I saw the fat-loss is quite slow, I wouldn’t go lower. It’s safer that way.
We all need some patience when losing fat.

Do IF if you feel better than way (it can be useful anyway but doing two new things easily can be too much. it’s personal though and keto sometimes automatically causes IF and vice versa, probably even very soon in some cases. so if it feels best, do it). If you aren’t hungry in the morning, it’s logical not to have breakfast and eating a bit too little for a few days isn’t necessarily a problem but longer term you need your food. At least occasionally eat more at the moment. It’s automatic for me. When I undereat for 2+ days, I become hungrier and eat more for a day or two, even if it means my eating window becomes bigger due to me unable to eat big enough meals at the moment. It’s not automatic for everyone, of course, be careful.

(John) #18

I am sorry if I came off that way. I guess I don’t understand what comments I made that is going against the advise I got from all the good folks on this forum. You had asked me a question and I was just letting you know the reason I started the IF and why I was only eating the calories I was. I did take your suggestion and state that I would hold off on the IF for a while longer in that same post.

The comments that I have got so far are all good and I plan to incorporate most of them. I do need to get stronger and increase my endurance though and so I do have to train to get in shape for both my health and to keep from killing myself when I am 6 miles from a road and have 2 feet of snow to walk through. Snow shoes take a lot of energy to move around in.

The one thing that is science no matter how calories are burned by the body is that a calorie deficit will give you weight loss and a calorie excess will give you weight gain. Keto does not change this. If you lose weight on a normal keto diet plan without adding any exercise to your normal routine, then you are eating fewer total calories and/or your body increased its metabolism or rate of burning calories per hour. Having the same routine day in and day out, our bodies will come to an equilibrium whether that is on the Keto diet or any other diet. This is the point where our bodies are consuming the same calories as we are expending.

By changing to the keto diet, I understand that my body is changing its metabolism and there are many other hormonal and body functions changing as well while my body adapts to the new way of eating. I just don’t see any harm in having somewhat of a calorie deficit (albeit I don’t know exactly what that deficit is because my body is changing) while my body adapts to the new diet.

I am going to stick to the 2000 calorie a day max as my initial plan called for and continue to train. I feel great now and much better than I did 3 weeks ago.

Thanks gingersmommy, for the advise, I did not mean to make you think that I was dismissing it.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

Actually, the science of thermodynamics applies rigorously only to a closed system. Like a lab calorimeter, where you put in a gram of stuff, heat it until it’s gone, measure the heat expended to do so. We are open not closed systems, which means there are inputs/outputs that are not precisely measurable and result in ‘messy’ non-zero-sum results.

For example. Maybe that particular cut of meat has a few more or less calories per gram than the published number. Animals don’t live in a calorimeter. Their metabolisms may be healthy or not, you don’t know. Maybe your metabolism is 80% efficient extracting energy from what you eat, not 100% per the published tables. The different macros are processed by different hormones in very different pathways. If you have any hormonal problems, then the processing does different things, including stuff it should not do, like store fat and glucose in your abdominal fat cells instead of burning it.

For example, if your insulin/glucagon ratio is haywire calories won’t much matter. If insulin is high, you are going to store energy. If glucagon is high you are going to burn energy. Independent of how many calories of energy you consume. We all know folks who gain weight just by ‘looking at food’ and those who can eat whatever they want whenever they want and never gain an oz. I was like the second until I got to 60 years old.

My dad was a perfect example. Before he had his thyroid nuked, he could eat anything, whenever he pleased and never gained an oz. After his thyroid was nuked he would gain weight, and did so for the rest of his life, eating anything no matter how little. His insulin/glucagon ratio was always haywire, but his thyroid managed to keep him in catabolic mode so he stayed low in weight and otherwise relatively healthy. Once the thyroid was gone, anabolic mode took over and he stored everything that entered his mouth. Calories were pretty much irrelevant. The insulin imbalance led to obesity, insulin resistance, pre-diabetes and finally diabetes. It also led to CVD - he had his first heart attack at the age of 63 and quadrupal bi-pass surgery before he was 65. He lived with a pacemaker for more than 20 years and was on statins for the same period.

He finally got some small control by reduing carbs, not calories. Not even keto or close to it, just reduced carbs. It was enough to get him out of anabolic storage mode and back into catabolic burn mode for the last couple years of his life.

I suspect I’m a lot like my dad. The difference is I still have my thyroid. I very likely share the same insulin/glucagon haywiredness that he did, which is why I struggle to maintain weight, not lose it.

Don’t get too dogmatic over thermodynamics. Thermodynamics in an open system is way more complicated than you imagine.

Stokies and CICO die/blow hards
If CICO doesn‘t work (as per Fung) why does IF work?
(Marianne) #20

Again, John, whatever way you feel is best for you, I wish you an easy road and much success. The beauty of keto is that we can proceed with what works best for us.