I didn’t say beyond a macro calculation, that’s not what I meant. I’m saying that the recommendation that, in order to overcome a stall, one must eat more fat is not something I’ve heard or read anywhere else. I’m not saying it’s not true either, but i’m gong to need more to go on given this is not supported as far as i can see.
No Weight Loss
jellybelly
#47
It’s possible. But who knows for sure? That’s the problem I have; a lot of uncertainty and conflicting information - doubtless provided by people with honest intentions. I’m not calling anyone a liar, and who am I to judge? I’m not a biologist. So yes, it’s possible.
I don’t know if my hormones are out of whack. It’s also entirely possible. All I know is that if when Iget hungry, I get hungry. Sometimes some water can ameliorate the feeling, sometimes I have to eat. Or at least that’s how it feels. We all haveto eat sometimes! I also eat to satiety, but I eat a lot of protein which is the most sating nutrient. I don’t eat a meal comprising solely one nutrient either so it’s impossible to tell if the meal has too much of one and too little of the other (except carbs obviously).
I generally eat 115g fat, 120-130g protein and about 10g net carbs (probably less in fact). I find anything less in terms of protein leaves me hungry. As for adding fat to compensate, it’s difficult finding fat that’s not also got protein or carbs. Unfortunately all the good healthy foods, like nuts or avocados, are extremely expensive here and I find keto to be very expensive. Meat is not cheap, unlike the processed rubbish that is unhealthy.
I’ve no idea if I’m eating too much protein or not. That’s another minefield subject; people say ‘too much’ causes problems but can never articulate whether that’s true or, if it is, how much is too much.
jamestorie
(James storie)
#48
@jellybelly you have to realize that there may not be science available to explain everything the ketogenic diet can do. With the popularity exploding they are scrambling to keep/catch up. This is so contrary to the standard that a lot of this is new. We are literally learning on a daily basis! Have just a little bit of faith that we who have been doing this as a personal experiment for multiple years know a little about it. We are not all scientists or doctors.
jellybelly
#49
No. I’m not tapping bodyfat, but that’s the reason people give for reducing fat intake on keto. That advice isn’t based on starving yourself, just not eating so much that your body doesn’t need to use its own fat for fuel.
This is where I am confused. If I’m sated after a meal that has, roughly, 40g fat and 40g protein (like my breakfast usually does, afaict - for the sake of argument anyway), how can i tell if i’m sated for the wrong reasons only to not feel properly full? Eating fat to satiety is difficult to coimprehend because I’m not just eating fat.
So maybe it’s my hormones or maybe i’m not eating the right amount of nutrients, but by all indicators I have seen, specifically macros, it seems i’m eating enough fat. If I’m not, how do I practically add more?
I don’t think anyone is saying CICO is simple, clearly there’s more to it than that, but even Dr Phinney’s first stage of his well fromulated diet advocates a smaller percentage of the daily fat intake to come from diet than the full amount in order to lose weight. Since I’m not losing weight, I assume that i’m eating too much fat. If that isn’t the case then I don’t really know what else to do.
jellybelly
#50
As we have discussed; if one’s body is faulty and hormonally compromised, listening to it will provide flawed results.
Or so it seems.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#51
What he said in Sydney last year is that a well formulated ketogenic diet is “ad libitum”, that satiety is the key, and to not leave the table hungry. Further when you get people onto a well formulated ketogenic diet people SPONTANEOUSLY reduce their energy needs from the diet (and on a ketogenic diet that is fat) as they are getting energy from their body fat.
Then as their body fat begins to reduce the amount of energy it contributes to their daily requirements, they develop fat hunger and SPONTANEOUSLY add more fat to their diet.
He doesn’t suggest to eat any specific amount of fat. When asked how much fat he ate, he said he really has no idea, he eats to satiety and his body looks after the details.
Yeah it’s a difficult subject because as you say we don’t just eat fat, or protein in isolation.
The way Dr Phinney handled it at the dinner last year was he got some Salmon from the bufffet, and then asked the waiter to bring out a bowl of melted butter, and he spooned about 150g of butter over the fish and ate that until he was full and pushed his plate away once he was full. There was a little fish left on his plate, I assume that he was somewhere within his protein requirements and was just using satiation to tell him when he had adequate energy.
The way I do it is I have french sauces with my meat, Bearnaise, Hollandaise, Mayonnaise which when you think about it is not that much different from a butter sauce.
The other way I do it is I don’t have set meal times. I don’t have the next meal until I am hungry again. If I overeat one meal, it could be a while until I feel hungry again. That is another way of fueling fat to satiety.
Unless your metabolism is somehow unusual (entirely possible - I’m not a doctor) then I suspect you are making plenty of insulin. And that is preventing your adipose from releasing energy and your cells from using lipids for energy. Fasting lowers insulin. Carbs raise insulin. Protein raises it by roughly 50% of the amount that carbs do, but you have a minimum requirement for protein (and none of carbohydrates) … so that is the most hard core version of the ketogenic diet, no carbs, minimum protein, fat to satiety and let your lower insulin levels allow your body fat to contribute to the satiation side of the ledger.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#52
A video of Dr Phinney saying this was taped at the Melbourne show 2 days after the one I saw in Sydney
Daisy
#53
Yeah, you know what? I get a bit tired of people saying that Phinney tells you to cut fat when you want to lose weight. I have never heard him say that. I have always heard him eschew counting calories too and hence specific macro levels too (except carbs and protein). He discusses calories but as an end result way NOT a way to decide what to eat. He also ALWAYS says n=1 and that he does not have an exact rule book to follow. It is laughable really how misquoted this man is.
jellybelly
#54
Ok, so assuming my body isn’t processing hunger correctly - how do I deal with that? If I’m to eat when hungry, and I get hungry, what do I do? Why am I stalled?
richard
(Richard Morris)
#55
I suspect you are stalled because you are not able to get energy from body fat.
Insulin will do that. It’s not the only thing, but it is the 800 lb gorilla.
Strategies to lower insulin;
- Don’t eat carbs
- Keep protein to close to the minimum you need for maintenance
- restrict dairy protein especially whey
- fast longer - so eat a later breakfast
- get better sleep
- Build up muscle with weight bearing exercise
- Deplete them of glucose regularly to sink insulin (HIITs are good for that)
- Consider pharmaceuticals such as Metformin, Berberine
And even then, some people can’t lower their insulin much further. We are all different. Some of us will have to accept that while we can cure our diabetes with a ketogenic diet, and get our markers of heat disease into the lowest risk group for heart disease, yet remain overweight. Once you disassociate obesity with the diseases that travels with it like Diabetes and Heart disease, then being overweight is IMO no longer a disease condition, just an aesthetic one.
"Exercise is not an effective tool for weightloss" is nonsense
jellybelly
#56
The only dairy I eat is cheese and butter which list no carbs.
I’m concerned about losing vitamins and minerals from cutting veg
I’m not diabetic
MKChitown
(Michelle)
#57
I also love the TRX. I bought it to take it on the road too. It’s a great portable contraption to get in a good workout in your room.
farmgirl
(Arlene)
#58
Thanks Fiorella. What a wonderful post. Like you, I have to avoid pretty much everything except meats. I can handle eggs just fine, and cream in my coffee. A little cheese once in a while, but not often. Anything sweet brings out the demons.
I get carb cravings when I steer too far from meat only. I love some vegetables, like fresh asparagus out of my garden right now. I can eat a few spears without inducing cravings, so I’m grateful for that.
It was comforting to read your post, as I don’t feel so odd, and I greatly appreciate your wonderful savory recipes. Sometimes this n=1 experimenting feels like an uphill climb. Your words, and those of so many others on this forum have been so encouraging to me.
KetoLikeaLady
(What The Fast?!)
#59
Whoa! That’s really helpful! I think I may have had a small revelation just now! @jellybelly maybe this is the case for you too… here goes.
For as long as I can remember, I have tried to eat as little as possible to get full so that my calorie intake would remain low. Even now, doing keto, I serve myself a small amount of food (or whatever amount I think I “should” be eating, in the hopes that amount will make me full. If it doesn’t, I feel ashamed that when I serve myself a second helping. I’m always budgeting subconsciously, thinking things like, “it’s 2pm now, I know I’ll eat dinner tonight and if I eat any more than this amount, I won’t be able to eat as much dinner later and then if I do, it will be too much…” BUT, if I actually allowed myself to eat what I wanted in a single meal (even if that means some ridiculous amount of dietary fat like 100-150g in one sitting), maybe I wouldn’t WANT to eat dinner. Ok, this becomes a little more difficult because to get enough protein, you kind of have to plan for that - but the point I’m making is, if we stop trying to control everything, our bodies might actually take the lead.
Also, I think everything @Richard and everyone else is saying about protein is right. We “think” we need tons of protein because it’s been drilled into us for long. How about experimenting with yourself to see if that helps? I used to eat 130g or 140g or so of protein a day, now im eating 50-75g and I’m noticing strength gains at the gym, so I’m seeing that protein myth busted in real life!
Lastly - I don’t know how much weight you have to lose…but I’m about 25.5% with roughly 35-37 lbs of fat (getting a DEXA to find out for sure soon). My body is really happy is this range; I’m heathy and active and it can do all the things it wants to do. I, however, I am not happy with it - but it’s purely aesthetics. We need to remember that our bodies are not designed for bikini season. They’re designed for survival. And - genes play a big part in that as well! If I’m going to get the results I want, I’m going to have to get IT what it wants. (I feel like it a compromise in a relationship…“ok, you can watch your TV program now but I get to pick the music in the car later.”
So, be kind to your body. Try experimenting. This community is great if you come in with an attitude of openness and genuine desire to find solutions and answers.
gardengirlkp
(Karen Parrott)
#60
Because I carry a genetic predisposition to extra ghrelin ( hunger hormone). I have to track my food intake.
I was overweight 4 decades , 40 years and it took me that long to figure out that even with Keto, I can keep eating my way into oblivion
Since obesity is a hormonal disease and I don’t have a natural stop or always normal satiety signals, I monitor total intake.
Once you ID what helps you, then use that tool. Keto is the best chance some normal full/ hungry signals. I’ve only been normal weight 5 years now.
I could happily eat my way back to morbid obesity via fat bombs and ignoring my own body signaling but the next 40 years are mine.
Keep tinkering with what works for you. Tracking is a cheap and easy tool. It’s no big deal. Just an extra tool so I can live my best life
Keep going.
jellybelly
#61
Thanks.
I don’t think those drugs are advisable (or even available) without medical supervision.
Is my protein intake too high? 120-30g?
richard
(Richard Morris)
#62
Big fan of the TRX here. My PT used it all the time, but I need to get myself one too.
jamestorie
(James storie)
#63
I drive a truck and I walk around when I’m unloading and think about all the ways I can connect it to my truck! Right now all I have is a jump rope. I may add a kettle bell as well for swings.
richard
(Richard Morris)
#64
I asked my GP’s advice before I went Keto, especially as I was on diabetic medication … so that always goes without saying. Berberine is regulated as a supplement, but IMO it should be treated as a pharmaceutical like metformin.
If you have 100 kgs of lean mass I’d say you are right on the money.
Some people can tolerate more protein, and some people believe they can train their body to being able to tolerate more protein by slowly increasing it. It wouldn’t surprise me, the human body is a remarkably adaptable machine.
Personally I make a lot of insulin from a protein challenge. You’ve probably see my experiment when 25g of whey had me making so much for 6 hours that I was using glucose faster than I could make it. https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/4253 So for me protein means insulin, and insulin means body fat isn’t contributing to my daily energy - so I eat more.
As you pointed out above correct protein amounts is a hotly debated topic.
The Australian nutrient reference values ( https://www.nrv.gov.au/nutrients/protein ) set the estimate average requirement for a 51 yo old male at 0.68g/kg LBM (roughly 52g a day) and the recommended daily intake (sufficient for 97.5% of people) for a 51 yo male at 84g/kg LBM (roughly 64g/day).
That would be the absolute minimum I would ever suggest people considering. I myself ate at the RDI for 2 months and did not lose significant lean mass (according to a DEXA I took before and after) but we’re all individuals.
Just to get an idea how broad that community is, here is the data at the foundation of the Australian reference values ( from this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12499330 )
it’s a meta-analysis comparing how much nitrogen people gain or lose for different amounts of protein eaten - if they are in pewrfect Nitrogen lanace then they are eating their minimum requirement. That range between the green arrows is the range … so at the top end 2 people needed almost 1g/kg LBM to be in nitrogen balance. And at the bottom end one mutant was able to do that at 0.3 g/kg LBM.
Where we each fit on that scale is going to be unique and specific.
I’m not going to tell anyone how much protein they should have because I don’t know … I’ll tell you how much I have and my basis and you can use that to work out how much you should have … and then test it. You might be able to tolerate more protein and still lose weight.
mikki
(eat more)
#65
do it! 
you can do kb swings with almost anything…cooler, heavy wrench, etc (if it’s on the lighter side just do more reps)
when i do them i do my swings and then immediately jump rope until i can’t…then rest…so kb/jumprope “supersets” 
i also love medicine ball slam/jump rope sets…you don’t have to have a medicine ball to do them…anything that you can slam on the ground (secure sandbag, industrial bag of feed, flour, etc)…
of course if it bounces it’s an easier exercise than having to get down and pick it up…but i don’t think you are looking for easier
also check out the Nike+ training club app…tons of bodyweight circuits and you can choose the workout based on focus, duration, and equipment
how’s that for a thread jack? LOL