No Weight Loss

(James storie) #21

I don’t have an exact paper. The source I have is Dr Jason Fung and Meagan Ramos. They are the leading authority on fasting and feasting. They have a clinic in Canada called IDM (intensive dietary management) clinic. Also, there was an overfeeding study done on prisoners in the 50s, I think, where the inmates were fed up to 10000 calories in an effort to make them gain weight. They didn’t, their metabolisms just burned more calories as a result. I’m sorry, I don’t have more detail, I’m sorry, but maybe @richard could chime in with more detail.

(James storie) #22

I found a link! https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-astonishing-overeating-paradox-calories-part-x/

(James storie) #23

I agree with @mikki. The scale isn’t very good at judging your success. Right now, I’m leaner than I ever have been as an adult, but I’m heavier than my lowest weight. When people ask me now what my goal is, I tell them it isn’t a weight, but a body image. I just want to be comfortable at the beach without a shirt on! I’m getting close!

#24

Hi @jellybelly,

There is a lot of great advice in this thread, for example from @jamestorie, @mikki and @birddog27 . I agree that you are likely not eating enough fat…this is a pretty common thing for people when embarking on keto for the first time. Eating habits when starting keto do typically change over time, as we get used to eating lots of fat.

I’d also like to point out that this forum has a very good FAQ…and I would recommend that you look at it, as there is info in there on studies, what does “fat adapted mean”, what is the basis of eating lots of fat, etc. Tons of info that will be helpful to you. Here is the link - hope this helps:

#25

I eat about 120g fat a day.

That is the very upper end of my macro.

(What The Fast?!) #26

Same, I don’t need a certain number. What I REALLY want, my REAL goal is just for my body to reflect the work I put into it. I’m very active, I love working out, I did my first century ride last year, I’ve done crossfit, boot camps, barre, Pilates, yoga, TRX, and more. I have consistently worked out for years and my body simply doesn’t reflect that, for some reason (likely a deranged metabolism).

I don’t care about hitting a certain goal weight - I care that I look in the mirror and see a result of the work I’ve put in. Based on everyone else’s stories, I’m putting my faith in keto and hoping for different results than everything else I’ve tried. Because I haven’t seen visible results yet, this forum - and the support and stories of people like you and @mikki and @Fiorella and @brenda and others are what help me to KCKO when it feels like nothing is working. :slight_smile: So…you know, thanks everyone. :sunglasses:

#27

Sorry, not sure what “upper end of my macro” means. How are you basing the upper end limit?

#28

Macro calculators provide a lower and upper limit for fat intake. Not a single number to hit. Every single calculator i’ve seen does this and those who create them say that fat is a limit, not a goal. Is this wrong?

#29

Yeah - i don’t use a macro calculator, and eat fat to satiety.

Macro calculators are based on CICO (calories in - calories out). The CICO model uses assumed metabolic rates…which is way off the mark for a lot of people. If metabolic rates are different in people, CICO makes no sense really.

Keto way of eating is based on reducing what provokes insulin levels. By eating lots of fat, the insulin level remains low and stable. This then leads to being fat adapted and regaining great hormone balance.

#30

There is no keto dcotor or expert that i’ve seen that advocates eating more fat. Even Dr Phinney says you shouldn’t eat more when losing fat. I’m very confused about this. Exactly how much should one be eating then if macros are no help. I eat to satiety.

#31

I think there may be a confusion here. There is a difference between eating more than satiety versus eating more than artificial limit set by a macro calculator. Big difference between the two.

You will need to point this out to me - where does a “keto doctor” state that you cannot eat fat beyond macro calculator? Please provide a source.

(Jennifer) #32

I might be mistaken, but @JellyBelly is beginning to sound like a troll. Asking the same question over and over, throwing our words back at us and acting as though we are morons.

A normal person would take our suggestions and possibly try something different. And be grateful for our time and attempts to assist.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #33

TL;DR

Meh. I see many newbies fearing fat. It takes time. When the magic happens though, LOOK OUT! Fat becomes our BFF

(Dustin Cade) #34

It took my lady @chandra-lah around 8 weeks to get through the process of her hormones leveling out where she felt the positive effects of keto… Saying it was was rough for her would be an understatement… She found it difficult to get enough fat in her diet, she started taking avocado oil in the morning… That made her feel pretty good… One of the biggest things with keto adaptation is patience! Not to mention a strong stable support system!

(What The Fast?!) #35

I wonder if, for some people (myself included), having a macro to follow gives a guideline for how much fat to eat because their satiety signals are so out of whack. Having been on keto for almost 2 months, I’m starting to figure out when I’m actually hungry vs when I just think I want to eat. However, I have a REALLY hard time identifying when I’m “satiated” because I have ignored hunger signals and undereaten (or eaten to specific macros) for so long. I usually eat over 135g of fat daily (I think I’ve gone up to 175 or so) and TBH, I don’t really ever feel “satiated” at the end of a meal. I mentioned this in another thread as well, but I could almost always eat another pound of bacon - the taste of food overrides satiety signals. I don’t want to hijack the thread - but all this to say, for some people having a guideline for macros is really helpful for someone who needs to get back in touch with what “full” feels like. It could also be counter-productive and I definitely understand that it’s important to listen to your body, sometimes people’s body just aren’t speaking loudly enough. :slight_smile:

I don’t know if this applies to @jellybelly but it may be part of what’s causing confusion.

I welcome your feedback on this @fiorella!

I’m actually planning to experiment with this - and overfeed purposely to see if I get the satiety signals everyone talks about.

(James storie) #36

What did you think about the TRX? I was thinking about getting one to use out on the road.

(Jim Russell) #37

I think that trying to hit a certain number of fat grams may be the problem here. The point is to hit a certain minimum percentage of your calories coming from fat. I think the minimum recommended to be in ketosis is 70% of calories from fat. For me, during the adaptation period, it is better to go even higher. After you are fat adapted, you can play around with the ratio that works best for you and your goals.

My strategy is to not pay attention to calories at all. When I make a meal, I pay attention to how many grams of carbs and what percentage of fat there are. If you take care of those two things, how much protein you eat will take care of itself. Once you’re burning fat, your body will let you know whether it needs more protein by making you more hungry. It is important here to eat more total food, not just eat more protein.

Then to keep a net caloric deficit, I cycle feast and fast. When you’re really burning fat, fasting becomes easy. And there are giant benefits to fasting.

As @KetoLikeaLady mentioned, in the beginning, it is difficult to tell the difference between real hunger and just wanting to eat out of habit or because you’re bored. For me, if I can’t tell if I’m actually hungry, I do something to distract myself. Drink a glass of water, get up and take a walk, whatever. If your body is really hungry, the hunger won’t go away for long, if at all.

Right now, your leptin sensitivity is broken. Leptin is the hormone that tells your body that it has enough food and you should stop eating. This paper sums it up pretty well:

Ketosis, ketogenic diet and food intake control: a complex relationship

Or in more layman’s terms:
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2007/06/17/leptin-low-carb-and-hunger/

Best of luck to you and don’t hesitate to ask questions. There are a lot of people here with a lot of knowledge.

(What The Fast?!) #38

I LOVE TRX!!! It’s the best workout! It’s a great profession tool because you can make it harder by simply moving closer or further from the anchor point.

(What The Fast?!) #39

Thanks @Jimbo!!!

#40

Satiety signals are controlled by a variety of variables.

One example is signal transit time. As in some people get a very fast message delivered, while for others (like me), the message comes a bit of time later (and meanwhile, at the risk of eating too much). If I have a bowl of nuts, I can eat handfuls of the stuff, before getting the satiety signal. If instead I eat nuts in their shells, it slows me down, and I eat much smaller amount because I get the satiety signal before eating too much. Here is an example of how I eat nuts:

20170511_114547_resized.jpg2448×1836 943 KB

I don’t restrict at all. I eat all the nuts that I want, until satiety. And because I get the satiety signal, I stop very easily. No macro counting.

Another example of a variable that influences my satiety is that I cannot eat sweet-tasting (dessert-like) foods. They stimulate insulin for me, which provokes hunger. If I eat savory stuff instead, and stay away from sweet fat bombs, artificial sugar sweeteners, keto candies, fruits (like keto-friendly berries) and all the keto-friendly desserts, I don’t wake up the hunger monster from its deep slumber.

The same goes with vegetables. When I eat closer to a zero-carb meal, I feel less hungry much faster. As soon as I introduce vegetables, I am compelled to eat more.

And of course, I have learned to restrict my eating to an eating window, and not constantly nibble all day long. If I eat breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack…it will not matter how much I eat…my insulin will be stimulated, and I will feel hungry all day long. If I eat only one or two meals a day, with zero snacks in between, my hunger levels drop to zero and I naturally eat very little food.

I find that with keto way of eating, as well as fasting, I have learned to “listen” to my body, and learned about these quirks. I’m grateful when I discover these natural built-in mechanisms that I have. I’d rather eat to satiety, rather than eat to a Myfitnesspal tracking app (which never worked anyway, because the macros were based on CICO anyway).

So, this is how I learned to eat to satiety. And this is why I spend many hours each week, sharing recipes on this forum. They tend to be “whole foods” type recipes, and I seldomly post dessert-like recipes. I’m certainly not poo-pooing the keto dessert recipes, as there are many people who can eat them and be successful with keto. I just know what works for me, and I hope to share those tips with others who are on the same journey as I am.

So, I will finalize with this recommendation: learn to listen to your body. Perhaps it would be helpful to journal the way you feel after eating different foods or different types of meals. Does oily fish prevent you from eating more, or does it make you more hungry? What about bacon - how much can you eat without feeling hungry? If you combine cheese with your meals, does it make you eat more or less? How about adding vegetables to your meals - does it compel you to eat more or less? How do you feel after eating a sweet, keto-friendly dessert - satisfied or hungry? What about sugar-free drinks like Coke Zero, La Croix or sugar-free Torani syrup in coffee? Do you feel hungry when you have been nibbling on snacks all day? When you learn these quirks about your body, you gain that control that you are seeking, and will no longer need to track absolutely everything in a smartphone app. And, more importantly…YOU SEE RESULTS! There is nothing more frustrating than meticulously tracking all your macros, and not seeing the results you aim for. It took me a long time to understand what Phinney and Fung and all the others kept recommending. I too was chasing “hard metrics” on smartphone apps. But, when I instead took their advice to learn to listen to my body, I finally got the results I was striving for.

So, this is why the recommendation is tracking carbs and protein (when beginning your keto journey) so you get a good understanding of what 20 grams carbs is, as well as 1 gram per kg LBM. When you become a veteran at eating keto levels of carb and protein, then you don’t have to meticulously track any more. And just keep on loading lots of fat into the meals, and eat fat to satiety. And of course…listen to your body on how it feels after eating.

I hope this helps :grinning: