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Have you heard Phinney speak? You must then surely have heard him talk about the need to eat fat and you simply cannot fear fat and be keto. He orders a plate of butter to go with his steak. Enough said.
Martin,
@richard and I spent the last year linking to evidence on our podcast at http://2ketodudes.com. You do not have to listen to every episode, as the links are listed on each page. However, it looks like you’ve missed a few really important studies. We follow Phinney’s recommendation of the range of macros, and consider him to be a pioneer. Not sure what gave you the idea that we had an argument with anything that he has published.
However, reality can’t be reduced to “always eat less fat” or “always eat more.” We strive to understand the mechanics behind this very complex system (metabolism).
So, please, go through the science that we’ve linked to, and let’s get back to a real conversation about specifics.
Carl
Phinney eats butter like that because he’s in maintenance. He’s not looking to lose weight.
and he also talks about fat to satiety at every stage of the process. Once you get satiety signals dialled in, everything takes care of itself. It really isn’t that hard. I never track unless I am doing a specific experiment like purposefully overeating fat for a week to see how much weight I gain. Zero. In fact, I lost weight.
That’s not what he says. He says “when we take someone who is … 25kg overweight and we tell them to cut their carbs to a level that allows them into nutritional ketosis, and keep your protein moderate - for this person that would be maybe 80-100g of protein a day intake, and tell them don’t restrict your calories … eat fat to satiety don’t go away from the table hungry. – most people will spontaneously limit their caloric intake to 1400-1500 kCal/day. So it’s not on purpose, they are not counting calories”
Dr Phinney goes on to say “But at some point, just instinctively, the persons lost 10 kilos they get into this creeping case of ‘it takes me a little more to become satisfied’ … people will SPONTANEOUSLY add more fat and creep up to 1800 kCal, Weight loss slows but they are still losing weight”
They are SPONTANEOUSLY adding fat as their body fat is less able to support their caloric needs. They are not deliberately reducing caloric intake to burn body fat.
He goes on to describe the slide containing his evolving pie chart.
“So in this graphic down here [the Phinney pie chart] what we’re trying to demonstrate is if you look at what you are eating … this says 25% fat because 50% of your energy is coming from body fat. As you add more calories from outside, that proportion of body fat progressively creeps down to zero as one gets to long term weight maintenance”
But the question you have to ask yourself is what is the driver of that? Am I supposed to RESTRICT my calories coming from the outside short of satiety … OR am I supposed to use SATIETY to stop at the point where I am adequately fueled and that spontaneously restricts the incoming calories. Well luckily Dr Phinney answers that question with …
#"The primary driver here is SATIETY.
“As people lose 25kg of body fat, they will naturally develop a fat hunger. What is fat hunger? well if you’ve eaten what was a reasonable portion, and you are thinking ‘I’m not that satisfied’ and you open the door of the fridge and the Butter is looking good. That’s fat hunger, and we have to coach people to recognize it. … Their intake naturally evolves over time.”
BTW that breakfast he was talking about was not the one Dr Phinney shared with me and Dr Taylor in Sydney. This video is the Melbourne event a day later. But I saw him order a bowl of butter the dinner the night before the Sydney presentation.
I noticed this meme developed by Mike Julian and you’ll see it around the keto groups on Facebook.
If people on KetoSaveMe are telling people that the Phinney Charts mean you must calorically restrict to lose weight, then in the words of Mike Julian’s snarky meme they are “morons”.
Because as you’ve just heard from Dr Phinney that is not what those charts mean.
I wouldn’t, of course, call anyone trying to help people with a ketogenic diet a moron - but a MEME must be correct, Right?
@Martin_Arnold I have not read through all of the posts so I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet and this may sound counter intuitive… have you tried fasting?
I know for me when I fast it takes less to get me satiated when I start eating again. The occasional fast could help.
was I rude to you?
As far as I can tell Mike Julian’s Meme was rude to you, and everyone else who thinks that Dr Phinney has been telling people to calorie restrict to lose weight.
But I would never call anyone a moron, especially someone who is trying to help people save themselves from Diabetes.
Cholecystokinin (CCK) is part of the neuroregulation of appetite and is released in response to fatty acids and some amino acids.
CCK is synthesized and released by enteroendocrine cells in the mucosal lining of the small intestine (mostly in the duodenum and jejunum), called I cells, neurons of the enteric nervous system, and neurons in the brain. It is released rapidly into the circulation in response to a meal. The greatest stimulator of CCK release is the presence of fatty acids and/or certain amino acids in the chyme entering the duodenum.
I gave you precisely the same appeal to authority that you used … 
's own words.
You appear to have been badly misled by whomever tried to convince you that Dr Phinney supported their specific narrow world view. I’m doing you a favor. By taking the time to show you what really said. What you do with that is up to you.
I feel like this guy just wants to “win”. Nobody is this combative…while being wrong.
See that just proves that you do not read posts properly @Martin_Arnold . Me, I’ll be rude to you. Richard? Nope, he simply doesn’t do that. Way too much of a gentleman and a scholar. Puts you to shame.
Martin appears to share a commonly held misunderstanding … that Energy Balance drives weight loss/gain rather than the opposite.
I see this as a teachable moment.
Unfortunately there are several keto groups on the internet, that have trouble getting away from this furphy of Calories In vs Calories out. It’s oxymoronic for a ketogenic diet to actually be lipophobic … Keto and Scared of Fat - that’s crazy like a Vegan butcher. But I know several groups that regularly shame people who eat fat.
This idea that people who are fat are that way because they are gluttons is an argument that ought to be challenged - because it is the foundation of failing diets from Weight Watchers to protein spared modified fasts. It is preferred by every diet charlatan that has ever taken a buck to help someone lose weight, because transitory successes are held to the credit of the diet, and the inevitable long term failures are accepted by the poor victim as due to their “lack of discipline”.
I see a lot of people from these groups who have left them demoralized and convinced their inability to shift their weight was down to their own lack of discipline, and too frightened to mention their lack of success at losing weight lest they be mocked with memes. In case any are lurking here watching this thread … it’s worth making this effort.
We never as a rule tell people how many grams of fat they should have in a day. Keto as we formulate it is not an IIFYM diet where you have a set amount of carbs protein and fat and as long as you hit that you are on track. Satiety is key. It allows us to titrate up and down our caloric intake to match the changing contribution of body fat with way more accuracy than any of the online keto diet calculators. Satiety takes into account not only how much body fat your have, but how much energy that body fat is releasing under the influence of insulin, and thousands of other inputs.
Note how Dr answers the question “How many grams of fat per day do you eat”
I was there at that presentation in Sydney, and it is worth listening to his story about the dish of melted butter that he ordered. I was at that dinner. I wish I had a photo of that moment, but I’ll admit I was too star struck to have the nerve to take a photo of Dr Phinney “chugging butter”.
So all the Keto groups who profess to follow Dr Phinney, yet traffic in nasty memes about Butter eating … should consider for a moment that they are mocking Dr Phinney, and feel some shame.
some ppl don’t want to be “taught” they just want what they believe and “know” to be validated without considering anything outside of that…
BUT…i have taken it as a learning experience for myself 
…i think that makes sense?
But this isn’t addressing the question.
I eat a meal to satiety. Who doesn’t?
Saying to eat one particular component of that meal makes no sense to meal. it isn’t just protein or even carbs that sate me, it’s the combination of everything within it. So if the message is ‘eat fat to satiety’ but not count grams, how does taht actually work?
And protein is the most sating element. Not fat.
