This reading of my statement is not what I was intending to suggest. I apologise that you read it this way; I shall attempt to clarify below in case anyone else read it in a similar fashion:

I appreciate that I’d replied to you in the comment, but I was speaking generally - i.e. if someone is on a SAD diet, my advice would be that they should try carnivore, and then once they’ve become established on carnivore, they should try strict carnivore. I often say this, as if people are lurking the thread out of curiosity (which is how I started), they might become convinced to give it a try.

I did not say ‘if someone is gaining more and more weight, they should keep eating carnivore for 2 years and not try anything else’.

I have stressed a couple of times in this thread that I did carnivore for more than 2 years prior to making this change. Although I am not at goal yet, I did have a lot of benefits - including fat loss and muscle gain. I keep mentioning this so it demonstrates that I did not pursue something for 2 years without any benefits and/or whilst gaining more and more weight, nor would I recommend that course of action to other people if those were their circumstances.

What I was really commenting on was that if you read some carnivore spaces (not here, elsewhere), some people barely manage a month on one style of eating and then they change - and a month later, they change again when another influencer tries something else - seemingly because they’re disappointed in the results they’re seeing at the time.

If people chop and change too rapidly, then it’s difficult to know which factors are influencing them, and it doesn’t give their body chance to become stable. Sometimes there’s healing to be done before fat loss can occur, and they’re potentially depriving themselves of this - because they’re looking for immediate visible results (which I understand and appreciate, because deep down, I think most people would like that) - and I always worry because I think it risks them going off plan.

Just harking back to what you said earlier - you tried 80/20 and reading your experience, it seems it made carnivore fairly unbearable. That’s what worries me with people new to this way of eating; I’d hate for someone to give up because they were starting it on ‘hard mode’, thinking that would automatically lead them to better, faster results.


I don’t have problems with changing things after one month if they want that and maybe know what they are doing (for certain problems, it’s surely not enough though…) but they shouldn’t just follow influencers! If their body says “nope, too much fat”, they should lower it and stuff, I did that after 1 day, it was obvious what to do. Or if I undereat (yes, rare but happened), I immediately take steps to get out of it (it would stop after 3 days anyway but in a too dramatic way). These changes make sense, we know what is the problem, strongly suspect how to solve it… But just because their fav influencer suddenly changed up things…? They may listen, think, take notes but it may be not right for them AT ALL!

I am sure it’s quite individual if hard mode is for a newbie or not. They may need it to feel right. Or they may quit due to the struggle soon. I liked to start with stricter (for me so the strictest I can imagine to do for a day for myself) and add things (even on the first day if I feel miserable) when I feel the NEED. But as strict as I (comfortably) can at the moment, that sounds very good :slight_smile: I need the comfortably part due to my personality(?). If I push myself, even if I feel pretty okay with it, may result in a sudden snap later. I rather do things a bit more gradually… But with strict days (or attempts) because they are fun :smiley: I need everything to stick to the woe for longer and fun is good for that. And anyway, every day should be joyful and fun if possible.

I am soooooooo full now. I didn’t fancy skipping my dinner, I almost never do that but i wasn’t hungry so I had another egg milk. 168g fat, 66g protein, 84% fat. Not a bad day occasionally.
I wanted a coffee and had it :stuck_out_tongue: It’s fine. It’s a valid reason for it.

317g meat for today. Even if it was mostly fat :slight_smile:


Hello all. I’ve been away for quite a while. Drifted to a more keto-ish WOE for a while, mostly by adding in pickled or fermented veg and olives. Started edging back to carnivory towards the new year.
Hope all are well and look forward to hearing how y’all are doing.

(Karen) #104

Dancing was just okay last night but we won’t go to that venue again. It just had the vibes of a practise night and me and Raymond just don’t care much for practise nights, we just love the social side with plenty laughter. Shame as it was so local.

Got home and noshed 2 hard boiled eggs.

Today i just had another rest day so as you can see i am getting back into this evening out malarkey slowly and treading carefully. Lots of reading and then the rest of the day spent finishing the jig saw puzzle. Made use of my head led light when it got dark … very handy.

I stopped at 1.45 to eat a good half to 2/3rds of the lamb shoulder i bought in Morrisons and cooked today. Flipping lovely and i finished it off this evening for dinner. It was nice and rare inside, cooked to my kind of perfection with plenty fat on it.

It was only 0.65kg bone in and i scooped out the fatty marrow out of the bone, lovely. I had got chicken thighs out of freezer for dinner but didn’t bother with them, i will cook them tomorrow. Dont think i will ever bother with leg of lamb again as there is def more fat and meat on a shoulder and it is more tastey. £4.58 for the shoulder, cheap at half the price and so much cheaper than leg.

Got in touch with work about my pension stuff and also managed to get back in touch with the civil service pensions… only took 3mins 30 to get through today instead of 28mins last week! I was shocked but pleasantly elated. I have learnt the art of patience since not working and getting more sleep. I keep telling myself no point getting all stressed out as it only makes one ill and the person at the other end of the phone doesn’t deserve to get shouted at and it doesn’t help your case either, they will just put your case at the bottom of the pile, so i am just patient, pleasant and polite … the 3 P’s :grinning:

May eat one or two hard boiled eggs later before bed. I tend to drop off to sleep better with some food in my tum!

(Linda ) #105

I think ppl put up with weight gain because they get told be patient trust the process your body is healing and for the most part they do see changes in skin or auto immune issues but not weight some of these ppl been on carnivore three or 4 years
Me I stayed gaining. But I got rid of rashes I got my triglycerides under control…
Now its time to deal with the weight gain lol… as I told cywes I don’t want to give it up I love carnivore but I can no longer keep gaining…and so I’m doing 80/20 but this time staying in ketosis and without all the extra added fats like sticks of butter and still small portions and still add fat in my coffee.


I will try fatty days later too… But today I got hungry after 8. Only ate a little. 183g fat, 89g protein. Not good, not tragic :slight_smile: (Alvaro keep saying this from the Chernobil film and indeed, it suits the situation quite often!)

My mood is very, very good for some reason. I am still not energetic on this gloomy, paperwork-y day but the bad, no mood to anything state of mine lifted. Who knows why, there are so many factors but I am glad it happened, I needed it. My last weeks weren’t good.

I have fresh ham for tomorrow again ~. My most common meat. And some leftover pork chuck roast. I want simple. I keep postponing making a new batch of sponge cake as I just don’t need them all the time anymore. Good, it’s simple but still work, whipping, cleaning bowls… My simple and still great carnivore meals made me lazy.
I will try to get similar macros to yesterday (except the carbs, they will be even lower) but it probably won’t happen, too low-cal and this leanish pork is only my second most satiating item (the most satiating carni one). But it’s fine, I just wanna see what happens if I go for such a low protein/fat ratio first :wink: I will be very careful, only eat a pound of lean pork. Or that’s the plan, maybe I won’t be able to resist, it happens… Good stuff. I think I fell in love. I liked it before, yes but not THIS much. Frying the fattiest parts was a simple but very good idea.

I am drinking my 3rd egg milk with coffee now (this time only yolk and butter. not as good)… Oh no it’s gone. One day I just make one from 5 eggs… I will drink egg milk from a beer mug! :smiley: I have a few and I never use them for beer (it would look very stupid with my 45ml beer, they are 6dl I think)… Or anything I want to warm later as they are too high for my microwave. Maybe that will be a problem, I do like my egg milk warm and I hardly will drink it at once. Oh well, it will look fun in a photo. But I have a shorter mug with the same capacity.

I feel almost drunk now for some reason. It’s probably my high mood :smiley: But if eating may have anything with it, tell me :smiley:

Tomorrow I do my absolute best to get more active again! If I keep this mood, I go out for a walk/run even in the rain! But I wish for no rain… We got it, a lot of it, it’s enough for now. The tits didn’t even get their seeds and nuts today, it was so rainy. They didn’t come, I didn’t go out. There are food for them elsewhere so I don’t even need to be super careful at feeding them. But it’s nice to see them from the kitchen window so I diligently feed them on days when there isn’t rain ALL DAY.
(My best friend if we doesn’t count Alvaro is suffering in the Australian heat all day and I white about some longer rain. But I still want sunshine. Or just no rain.)

(Linda ) #107

Our plan was two or three day as a week and it wasn’t sustainable Cywes has thrown pmsf experiment out of his practice he said it led to ppl over eating …Constant hunger and continued weight gain.( hands up)…over all he said it was a complete failure for his patients maybe that’s because he doesn’t restrict calories… Maria does down to max 800, on pmsf days … so when we got hungry we ate and ate and ate even if it was lean chicken or fish then off days our food consumption was higher than before pmsf…
For me that was the biggest mistake I’ve made on carnivore it took me months to try and get hunger back under control the only thing that solved that was going extremely extremely high fat and now I no longer need that so dont do it …I dont have hunger any more like i did… but I still do have a load of weight I need to deal with…Even now Cywes has given me no calorie limit he told me to take portions small as possible without hunger and to take electrolytes and to use fat in my coffee and stay in ketosis and use plenty of salt…


I can’t remember who said it - maybe Ted Naiman? - but there was a theory going around a few years ago that people on SAD keep eating until they satisfy their protein requirements.

On carnivore, I have experienced feeling strung out and hungry when my protein has been too lean (not doing PSMF, just through the meat I had not being fatty enough).

I half wonder if that’s the problem with certain implementations of PSMF - that if a threshold for fat isn’t reached, it causes people to spiral?

When I started 80/20, I was insanely hungry. I’m finding now that it’s ebbing away; my glucose is lower, my ketones are higher - and I feel more satisfied. In turn, that’s leading to consuming fewer calories whilst keeping my ratios the same. It’s funny how our bodies respond sometimes.


Obviously not everyone is like this, some people eat low-protein… Too many, apparently.

I do the above on each and every diet and then I may or may not stop… It depends on my somewhat complicated conditions of getting satiated.
I need protein, I need calories… And some protein isn’t satiating and before carnivore carbs acted as negative calories when it came to my satiation…
It’s very, very obvious from my tracking. So if I eat too lean, I inevitably overeat protein as I can’t stop until I get my (fat) calories (probably protein calories would work less due to how our body works). But I always eat much fat there, I have no idea what would happen on a very lean diet. Maybe I could eat 500g protein, who knows? (I doubt it but never felt starving on low-fat. I do crazy things to stop hunger.) But maybe I would stop at 200-something and would be miserable. Maybe I could push it over 300 and then I would just eat a TON of fat. I am wild when I snap and I don’t do hunger.
I don’t really want to try it out but I am curious. Maybe I try a PSMF meal or something? I want a leanish day anyway. It worked on Sunday but I didn’t feel optimal, I had some protein aversion in the evening (and I was at 160g but without the usual fat! I am sensitive to my ratios).

Now I have fat aversion, nausea and borderline bellyache, I will be careful not to eat just some super fatty stuff next time I go for a high fat/protein ratio… Why now, so long after my fatty meal? I don’t know. Maybe it was the time when my body did its macro counting :smiley: I don’t know how it is with it but when it gets late and my macros aren’t right, I get sudden urges to eat this or that. Or today and yesterday, NOT eat. More like “get it out” but I can’t.

No regrets just conclusions and determination not to do it like this again… Experimenting is fun and I only rarely feel bad due to it.

It’s interesting to hear what PSMF may do to people… It makes logical they get hungry as they are starving but I would think they won’t overeat often. But I am not very surprised. Just very very inexperienced with very low-carb very low-fat. And I like to keep that as far as personal experiences go. Never sounded right. Even fat fasts are loads better.

80/20, at least I did that for a day :slight_smile: It sounds something that would suit me - if I managed to raise my energy need very much. And find some food I can eat galore despite this high fattiness . But the macros would be lovely. I LOVE fat and always dreamed about eating 300g fat on keto… While eating waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less (130 was my vague target) and it was still too much to lose fat… But it was before carnivore, it’s better now.
I don’t think my 130+ g protein is negotiable but I will try. The above works on the supposition that I can’t go lower normally.
But I know fat fast (I did it with 88% fat) breaks it. 20% protein is probably too much and I can’t stop until 130g it’s still extrapolation so I can’t be sure. But without a huge fat percentage my lower protein limit was super stubborn this far.

I want lots of experiments, I need OMAD to fix at least the number of meals factor (and I like that anyway, many advantages). I am getting closer to it again :slight_smile:

I think WAY too much about this today.

(Linda ) #110

It doesnt make sense though because eating High lean protein can to feelings of starving. Noted by many ppl who tried pmsf… …protein is a extremely poor fuel source and yep lean protein diet can lead to rabbit starvation or protein poisoning too many days in a row as happened to steffasan in his hospital experiment which is clearly documented… I didn’t get sick but I sure got hunger and diahrea so if ithe body is saying eat more protein more protein why doesn’t it stop demanding protein before ppl get really sick? … but it does it makes sense that with pmsf removing all fat bar 30 grams was causing extreme hunger because bodies running on fat no carbs need fat. Its the first time in my life i felt like i was binge eating id get full but 20 ,mins later id be starving . But how much weight do you gain and keep saying this is just healing 30lbs, 40? 60?.. but what is surprising to me is how long it takes to correct that if your just eating to hunger i couldnt correct it with out changing fat ratio. I tried for months just eating to full and watching as the scale kept creeping up as did my blood sugars… then i changed to Ambers protocolI did 8 -12 weeks of prob 4:1 fat the scale at least for the first while stopped moving and started dropping but then adding even more fat just caused more weight gain and then I noticed id get sick feeling if I ate too much fat so started cutting back… my ketones by then had returned blood sugar dropped and I just wasn’t hungry anymore.
It took extreme amounts of fat for my body to say ok we are safe and down regulate hunger. And if course with that came way lower protein …got to also remember that Ted naimen is also a athlete specialist so most of his patients don’t have metabolic issues and never have …I think that’s something alot of ppl in this space don’t acknowledge there is something in us that is different than those who have never had weight problems genes mutation ?, gut michondria? Gut bacteria?, something …those ppl without weight problems may do extremely well low fat high protein but that’s not me and the original carnivore was always fatty meat 80/, 20 .
Which is why I too suggest new ppl starting give basic carnivore a chance first it prob all you need…but if it doesn’t work adjust and adjust again til you find how to work it for you…
I’ll never go low fat again but I can say it def was a learning… one that cost me alot of time lol

I only did two days a week at a time but for a couple of months then went one meal low other meal not…the hunger and the diahrea were def symptoms that I suffered… looking back now how crazy was that pushing to the limit of possible protein Poisoning every week lol no wonder my body said wtf and gained everything there after it could…when I started thus I was at 138.lbs…


Fasting blood glucose = 5.8mmol/l and blood ketones 0.1 mmol/l, again. Low ketones and glucose over 100mg/dl

Last night I ate 430g venison roast. Very lean but juicy. I cooked it in lamb fat, and also added pieces of butter to the fork as I ate it. Also had a slice of pan-fried halloumi cheese. I had returned from a warm, summer evening ocean swim. The swim was good because I felt strong, moving through the water like a battleship.

I’m watching that Amber O’Hearn video again (from my last post), because, like venison, it is so dense and rich in goodness. It talks to me about the reason I am often in minimal ketosis on ZC carnivore, and I am chasing the ketones for mental clarity and energy for my job as a University lecturer.

I’ve been out in the sunshine. We are getting some beautiful hot summer days, and I get out with my shirt off in shorts and boots doing physically active chores around the homestead and property.

You know that mental jolt that can happen when you catch up with an old friend who you haven’t seen in a long while?

Yesterday I saw my deceased father’s ex-partner, whom he lived with for his final years. She is a lovely, refined, straight-backed, sometimes stern, meticulously honest, German lady, who worked as a nurse, and learnt her English in Scotland. Not a fool sufferer this one. Over many years in the early 2010s she would be abruptly clear that I was fat in her assessment. Often in front of other family members.

We caught up yesterday, and her eyes widened. Firstly because I have let my hair grow for the past 3 years and have past shoulder length blonde hair. My older and younger brothers are close to bald. German aunties, Omas, and matriarchs have spent lifetimes telling me to get my hair cut. This ZC WOE can give a bear a fine coat. Secondly, she looked me up and down, even before “hello”, she said, “you are looking good”, and took a photo. At least she had for years pre-empted that back-flip greeting by her honest opinion of me being fat. She has no tolerance for ‘people who don’t look after themselves’. I reckon she has compassion burnout from a long no-fuss nursing career and that she is German. I shouldn’t give the surprising greeting much cachet, except that I had been taught in my upbringing to respect these strong women, so assessments from them ‘carry weight’. My response was, “Hello Gisela, you look well, I hope you feel well.” And we got down to catching up on 3 years of not having seen each other in person. She’s a nice old chook, a porcupine, soft once past the bristles.

(Robin) #112

Oh, how wonderful.
Glad you were able to revisit her and stand proud in her frank assessment. I like crispy old broads like that.
Maybe because I am in the process of becoming one.

(Megan) #113

Thanks for clarifying @Septimius, it was a very broad statement and I had flashbacks of all the horror stories in the ketoAF group of people being told to “give it more time”.


I’m a bit confused - I agree that lean protein alone doesn’t satisfy, but that wasn’t what I was referring to?

I was talking about the theory: “that people on SAD keep eating until they satisfy their protein requirements.”

People on the Standard American Diet are eating significant amounts of fat and carbs; not just lean protein like people do on PSMF. The theorised problem is that they’re eating so much fat and carb, their protein is negligible - and it’s this lack of protein that keeps them hungry.

I’m not sure I 100% agree with the theory; I think it’s equally plausible that the combination of fats and carbs is addictive - this combination is relatively rare in nature, and there have been reports that the brain values processed foods more highly than others.

But I only mentioned it as a framework to say that I think the inverse is plausible; the concept we keep discussing - that too little fat keeps us hungry.

I think, to an extent, we’ve been socially affected by the dietary decisions taken in the 70s, so people have managed to eat very lean diets (of carbs and protein together; not protein alone) for a significant period - but I think some of this is through gritted teeth (certainly, this was my experience with low fat). As it’s seen as the right thing to do, people put up with hardship for a duration but then often blow up their diet for cheat days/weeks/months.

I 100% agree that everyone is different and said as much earlier in the thread. The eat more protein advice seems to primarily come from younger male athletes who haven’t previously been overweight, and these seem to be the dominate voices in the carnivore space at times.

There’s a lot of interesting voices appearing about women’s health and hormones and how fat is required for them to function properly.

That is so upsetting; I am so sorry you’ve gone through this.


This is so good to read. I’m glad you ran into her and had such a positive interaction.

Out of interest, do you feel hungry when you test fasted?

Previously, I would fast until between 10am-2pm because I wasn’t hungry. When I changed my f:p ratio, at first, I was very hungry from very early morning. I’ve started to have a little fat later in the evening just to keep those feelings at bay in the morning - but at the moment, I am still hungrier sooner.

The reason I ask is because if I tested whilst I was hungry in the morning, my ketones were much lower than when I tested post-prandial in the afternoon.

I realise you don’t really know me, as I’ve been unwell since you joined the forums and as a consequence, I haven’t been posting much. I am a lot more considered and thoughtful and nuanced in my posts than those sorts of posters elsewhere; when I am well, I do a significant amount of research and try to share it with others.

I am still rather unwell - and perhaps I am not communicating as effectively as I usually do. Being misinterpreted twice in 24 hours is perhaps a sign that I should go back to being quiet again for a while.

I was quite enjoying having people to chat to, but it’s a bit taxing/stressful to have to keep apologising for not managing to explain concepts that seemed clear to me when I posted them, but evidently weren’t clear to other people upon reading them. This brain fatigue really is something.

(Linda ) #116

No don’t stop posting being part of the group is important…and hopefully sharing helps you too


Yeah, rabbit starvation is a well-known thing since ages, that’s why one doesn’t do almost pure protein for long (very easy to cure though if one has access to fat. people having access and refusing it, that is crazy). I couldn’t do PSMF even for one day (maybe if I really tried…?) but maybe 1-3 days do something good to someone… And if not or it’s rare, WHY PSMF is so extremely popular? I don’t get it.
But at least, hearing about the brave reckless souls who tried it, it proves what was already obvious to me: satiation isn’t so simple that THIS item is satiating, that is not so much so if you focus on the lean protein very much, you get satiated in the fewest calories. It’s not how we work. We even know that protein isn’t an ideal fuel, protein toxicity is a thing so why…?
My lean days still have fat, more than the essential amount just way less than normal. And of course they last for 1 day, low-fat isn’t my style. This never could change, I need high fat high protein.Sometimes I need tweaking and correcting but I shouldn’t touch these sacred points.

If one just want to eat little, a full fast sounds better, the hunger disappears or not so bad there, usually. It was the case for me, at least and heard it from others. Surely doesn’t work for everyone… And we get autophagy :smiley: It would be hard on me but still less hunger…

I understand people try things in desperation but there are facts and usually some basic knowledge about our own body… I CAN’T do low-fat or low-protein, even my adequate protein attempt failed almost each and every time. I accepted that but it’s logical I need a lot from both (it’s not logical I need so high protein so I just half-accepted that). I am left with a smaller wriggle room regarding the ratio so I play there. And do some extra days because I can. I may learn things. I did some very much not sustainable things for 1-2 days and it was informative and useful.

I definitely wouldn’t accept more than 1 kg (2lbs) gain unless (I doubt the possibility though) I would feel way better or not but I would heal from some problem. And still would tweak something because unless I am too thin (ha! never will happen, probably), it’s not normal. I understand it with much meat, the nutrients help but big amounts of fat? That can’t be needed like the meat. The ratio does something miraculous, maybe, the restriction of protein too, for some people but rapid weight gain with tons of fat… I can’t see a positive side. Even if I believed in high fat/protein, I would lower it a bit.
But of course it matters how I feel. I very easily reach the point where I had enough if I use extreme ratios (80/20 may be already that to me) and simply can’t eat more or not much, it helps.

But now I am super curious about PSMF even if everything else in me (everything not my Curiosity) is against it from the time I first heard about it. One meal must happen :smiley:
Not today, I have pork chuck to eat! And my fresh ham has a cute fat layer again. After my last 2 days (46% and 81% fat) I need a normal day (I plan it a bit lean like 60% fat this time).

I don’t think PSMF causes rabbit starvation if it has the minimum fat… Doesn’t rabbit starvation only happen when there is very close to NO fat? Our minimum fat need is quite small. Some people still manage to go lower and of course, certain circumstances do the same (eating lean wild rabbits or other people starved to death, not much fat can be found in the meat part. think of bone marrow then. at least when it’s people eating, the rabbits are so tiny. even their brain is disproportionally tiny).
There are plenty of experience about lean meat not being enough.
But if PSMF has the minimal amount of fat, that worst case won’t happen. It’s still bad but less so…?
30g fat is the lower estimation that the not enough knowledgeable one knows as minimum fat need (it can’t be the same for everyone…). I like to be safe so I would say people should do 40-50g at least (but as I don’t know much about this topic, only when there is nothing else around or they are fatphobics).


Thanks - I have a very poorly brain at the moment. :frowning:

I am trying very hard. I can see back in my posts where I jump from one concept to another without connecting it. I know what I meant to say, but I don’t think I’m colouring in the lines, so to speak - although it looks right when I first press submit. Why does clarity come 12 hours later? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Oh well, explains to all why I am focusing on GKI. :laughing:

(Linda ) #119

No he was just eating lean muscle meat and within 2days he started getting sick… and so kind of understandable doing back to back psmf for a couple days you can start to get symptoms



Makes perfect sense and I am sure the statement is true in many cases - but of course, as always with people and their eating, it’s not so simple.
Many people manages to get satiated with low protein (not negligible, it’s a crazy diet where protein is negligible. I eat a cake here, it has protein. grains have protein. so many things have protein. not so much percentage wise but they can add up. if one lives on the most low-protein stuff, yeah, that’s bad but I always imagined people eating “everything” has lots of yummy meat and eggs and whatever they like too. and tons of carbs, sure. I thought tons of fat too but then I was told that the low-fat movement or what should I call it reached the West long ago. poor West. though I can’t believe them. traditional delicious food is fatty. fast-food is fatty, isn’t it? pizza is fatty. no way most people behave and don’t eat these. butter is tasty and popular, okay, many people avoids that one but they replace it with a worse but still fatty substance, usually. I would think. but I never was in the West, maybe they truly changed a lot and it isn’t reflected in movies and novels and fics I see/read…).
And I personally get/stay hungry because I ate carbs. It doesn’t matter I had plenty of meat too, finished 5 minutes ago, I am STARVING because of the stupid carbs. Maybe not anymore, it seems so but it was just like that in the past. Beware carbs, they are tricky and defy logic and common sense!

I never met anyone who said carbs make them hungry. But I couldn’t be the only one from many billions. Alvaro gets satiated by carbs perfectly and he eats way lower protein too. Enough, he keeps his impressive leg muscles but just enough I suppose. I will track some days of him soon, I am curious what his heightened meat eating did to his protein intake. Probably nothing or not much. But his days are all over the place too, usually the same calorie range (without any tracking, he just does it) and nearly always 3MAD but protein, fat and carbs, they vary like crazy (probably protein not so much unless if he has the rare keto breakfast made by me and then fancy meat during the day more than usual). His satiation is the same with any not very extreme macros.

Rainy day and extreme verbose level from me again. I feel better but I will be careful with fat tomorrow (when I eat up my leftover pork jowl. it was a big block, full with fat and I eat it for 2 meals…? wow. maybe 3 but it’s hard to stop, it’s very nice).

I don’t know what is “addictive” here… Normal food can be even tastier and irresistible, easily triggering overeating - if satiation allows. That’s the key for me. Being able to eat more or not. No matter how irresistible is the stuff and how much I just don’t CARE that I am already very satiated (but can eat more. I always could with carbs), at some point I get a full satiation from okay food and I am unable to eat or desire more. Carbs make this impossible, I need something else and it happens through massive overeating if my appetite is huge. And carbs rarely give me proper satisfaction when I have that appetite momentum, very hard to stop.
Good thing one eats fat and protein too. I can’t imagine how people eating mostly carbs do it. Though carbs don’t have this crazy effect on most people (definitely not to this extent. I can eat a BIG carni meal, then eat some carbs immediately and I am hungry again. and this is just the hunger, not the extreme appetite and dissatisfaction fueled compulsive eating. I got the latter in the evenings, it’s milder otherwise but carbs still able to mess things up spectacularly).

I consider this an obvious fact on very low-carb under normal circumstances (I don’t say everyone works like that but almost…?). We need fuel. Protein is poor fuel but we hardly can eat enough of it anyway, that’s deep into protein toxicity territory.
With carbs… No idea, never knew a low-fatter in person (or didn’t know that about them) :smiley: People eat high-fat here, all my family members ate and eat high-fat. But HCLF works for many people, at least hunger wise, that’s easier and quicker to see (but I am sure many are thriving on it as it suits them. odd folks but I must be odd to to them). It probably depends on the actual amount of fat, protein and carbs and of course, the individual. If one eats the minimum amount of fat and enough protein and enough fuel (be it fat or carbs, even protein can help but it’s not fit for the role), it should be enough for satiation… People do the minimal fat without problem. Below minimal we have big problems, it’s unhealthy, no one should eat like that.

Of course, this minimum fat isn’t enough for all of us to feel okay but does it mean we can’t get satiated without more…? No idea. Probably it depends. I am sure I need fat to get satiated. Protein has no chance almost alone and carbs always made me hungry… Not many options are left. But I was satiated on my fatphobic high-carb day (it was really too low fat intake, below the minimal needed. it’s amazing what I can do when curious). It was bad, I disliked the food (there are some pure carbs I like but I didn’t have those), missed fat but I wasn’t hungry. But it was ONE day and won’t be another.

But it would be logical that the body misses things but uses the fuel it gets. So big hunger isn’t very logical. Maybe it’s the way of the body to get the missing things though…