My experiment day is done, now I feel a bit unwell. I satisfied my curiosity for a loooooooong time with this type of experiment… It went better in the past. I am fine just feel odd somehow, slightly bad, unusual. Still no regrets, I had to try it.
Didn’t track yet but I surely had a low fat/protein ratio and feel ready for big ones but maybe I eat normal tomorrow. I just want to chill. Alvaro has his food, I have eggs and pork chuck roast… We will see what I will want tomorrow. Alvaro has plenty of meatless protein for his carbs, I try to align our turkey meal so I will wait with that. Lean poirk then if I don’t want pork chuck or simply eaty it up. It’s only a biggish freezer box (of course you don’t know my freezer boxes. neither do I, is it 1 liter of 1.5…?), not little but I can go through it in 2 days. Unless maybe if I seriously jump my softish eggs I made for the Scotch eggs we didn’t want in the end but Alvaro says he can eat them up despite having other things to eat (along with something similarly needed to be eaten and it’s vegs so it’s up to him). Good.
I never handled well when things had to be eaten asap. Or not asap but too much food, I had some mild childhood trauma regarding that. I want something to eat, yes but too much is maybe even worse. I love that I can put my meats into the freezer :smiley: All hail to the inventor!

So, holiday ends (Alvaro goes back to the hell again… too dense people and too few computers to take apart nowadays, jerky rich bosses too), time to get serious about plenty of things.
I feel ready now unlike in the beginning of January but I had okay days just not as good as they could be. At least I did my experiment and didn’t wear out my freedom loving parts.

So, I have plans now. For the next one months for now.

  1. No coffee and I am SERIOUS this time!!!
  2. Definitely no coffee before 4pm…
  3. But I am brave so cream isn’t banned :smiley: I need recipes to use up whatever Alvaro leaves and I don’t want to make my lovely carni dessert with, surely some meat with creamy sauce would be a nice variety…
    It’s not a rule but whatever.
  4. As strict as comfortably possible, every day. Some “strict no dairy week” doesn’t mix well with me, I would just feel restricted. I don’t force anything at all, just don’t indulge needlessly. I wrote about this before.
    IDK if I will use this but I have codes.
    S0 : Fasting day. I don’t expect one in the next month but I should be always ready…
    S1: Eggs and fresh meat. Tea too and maybe very minimal condiments (especially mustard, still nice for eggs though it’s not as vital as it was in the beginning). Definitely. No. Coffee. Oh and my 2g butter for my egg milk! I may try to skip it but only if I really don’t want it… It’s a nice, harmless stuff. And I don’t handle too much restrictions well even if it seems I do.
    S2: Not fresh meat (I call this processed but not everyone, how do I call sausages and smoked things?) as well, spices and condiments are very fine. Salmon spread too, it seems too mild for S3 and I don’t eat much. And only if I don’t have a better idea.
    S3: The most relaxed form of carnivore-ish, my original definition. If very needed, some extras (eggs in purgatory - just what sauce stuck on my eggs, Alvaro is the one with carbs to pour it on - and our quite low-carb but still definitely not carnivore stews).

S2 and S3 says nothing about coffee, that’s a different thing, I have it when I really, really would feel worse without it. I have nothing against a coffee sometimes when I fancy it. I just want to stop using it all the time without reason just because it exists and good for procastination. That’s not mentally healthy. It DOESN’T help with headache, I finally learned that. (A nice thing when I have a headache though BUT my egg milks are just as good.)

No rules about timing. I obviously want to skip lunch but I just eat when I need to eat nowadays so that is fine. Hopefully I will stop this early hunger, today I didn’t have it, yay.

I will play with my fat/protein ratio but I never cared about it as long as I feel good, like my food and don’t overeat something. I will enter an unknown territory if I stick to carnivore for longer, I don’t want to make strict plans, I never was good at them anyway.
One important part of my experiments that I have some… idea? attitude?, start to eat accordingly and then do whatever feels right and see what happens. And if I don’t do explicit experiments, it’s even more flexible, I just don’t put myself or my eating into tiny boxes. I can focus on different food items I like but that’s it. Today I went for a high-protein lowish fat first meal and then I just didn’t have a proper second one. I was ready for 1-2 more meals, potentially with lots of fat (not my goal at all but I found that realistic) but my body didn’t think so. I knew what i want to eat for my first meal (I failed even that a bit :smiley: but I had pork and bacon and eggs to eat as well) - and then I knew I will follow my body. It always up to it when and how many times I eat. And how much for a meal. I just chose the food to some extent but if I don’t feel I want it, I must change even that.
So I have moderately little control on my fat/protein ratio but still, choosing fattier or leaner items may have an effect. I am curious how much :slight_smile:

(Linda ) #82

Great its also working for you…I think ppl are pushing extremes on it though some are now eating two sticks if butter per day now while that maybe beneficial to a small number I don’t see it as a long time thing Kelly also works out so that prob makes her calorie limit higher…

I saw a post in another form where a guy who works out regularly and normally eats 1.5 to 2lbs of meat daily decided to up his protein to 3,lbs per day for 30 days why?? Because so many carnivore influencers say eat til full he said at 3lbs he still wasn’t full that would be 5 or 6 lbs which would not be affordable so he chose ,3 … but he wanted to see what difference it would make.
His results were shocking he went from his normal lvl of hunger to constantly being hungry he gained 22lbs of fat he posted pictures …its was so noticeablly fat he said it took months to get his hunger under control again dropping back down to his normal range of 1.5 to 2 lbs of meat he dropped his weight back of course but this guy never had a weight problem said until then his weight had been stable for years…

I found it extremely interesting because the hunger is exactly what I experienced although cywes had me changing things up so often and as the weight continued to creep up I should have stopped but I had pushed weight loss aside and was focused on cholesterol… I’d lose a couple lbs I think one time it was almost seven pounds down then things changed again that came back plus alot more friends to end up putting on so much weight…

So being 9lbs down this time I’m sticking to it I’m lucky cywes is also a weight loss specialist and this time weight loss is the focuss so im not changing plans lol…


Wow I didn’t see this coming… It’s a bit like my day when I decided to drink 4 liters of water out of curiosity. I was super thirsty all day and that feels very bad.
Odd. I am very, very sure than I am simply unable to eat much more than 2 lbs of meat. The more meat I eat, the more satiated I get (unless it’s chicken. or pork shoulder) and anyway, I have my protein limit as well, not a hard limit, probably but still. It’s very noticeable and it turns off my desire to eat protein. I always got it soon after 200g protein this far. Probably could push it a bit but hardly much more.
So I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have that but it’s good to know it happens to some people.
Once I met a guy who said he massively overeats on OMAD, always, inevitably. He can’t help but to eat a HUGE meal, way, way more than his 2 meals on TMAD… People work in odd ways though I somewhat understand if someone eats a ton when already super hungry. I still can’t do that as I have my calorie limit per meal (about 2000 kcal, usually requires carbs) and anyway, unless I focus on my food items well, I eat smaller OMAD meals than what I eat on my first meal on 2MAD or 3MAD sometimes. It was pretty annoying when I tried OMAD because I ate way too much on TMAD and the size of my first meal dropped, being too small for a sustainable OMAD. How on earth should I eat then? But many people have it after a fast, a smaller than usual meal. My body considers 23 hours long enough to do it :frowning:

A ton of meat sounds crazy anyway, why to do it without a need? One just don’t have such a protein need normally.
I never want to eat 2 lbs of meat as it’s already overeating protein for me. 1 lbs or a tad more is enough even for me and I eat high protein as adequate isn’t enough. I eat eggs too, that’s why I can’t go somewhat higher with meat. My dairy protein is usually minimal, it helps now that my body decided it wants very meaty days. It’s crazy. I give it lots of protein, lots of fat and definitely not little meat… But a quite meaty day is regularly triggered if I don’t do it myself, I can’t help it. So maybe I should focus on meat a tad more in the future. It’s not as simple as these things change. My body was quite happy with the occasional 1 lbs of meat and with way lower meat days in the beginning. Now I eat much more meat but no, it isn’t enough, it wants extra super meaty days now. Super for me, WAY over 1 lbs, nothing extreme but it’s a very strong force and it makes little sense to me. And if it wants more meat, why can’t it tell me properly earlier? No, it’s fine, fine, fine and then suddenly I must go to the kitchen at 9pm and eat up my leftover pork. Oh well, better than at 2am.

(Linda ) #84

It’s good that you get a protein stop signal for me I was taking my meat amounts higher and higher but for me it was driving my blood glucose up with it…It might not be the protein its self causing it but as soon as my body is dumping glusose into my blood I’m burning sugar …which makes sense as to why my ketones were non existent and that was also backed up not just by my meter but blood labs saying no trace of ketones…and my fasted blood sugar over 100…

Yes,we are all different and your body telling you more meat makes sense because if your low on carbs it’s gonna get it’s fuel from somewhere lol… a percentage of fat is always used for hormones and cell repair, as is a percentage of protein for repairs and building so if you get that turn off to protein and still hungry thats where your slice of cheese or your sour cream desert come into play or a fatty coffee…your body at that point just needs energy to give you energy…


I have but it’s too high :frowning: I want to stop at 100 if possible, it should be enough for me. But fine, 130 for satiation. Not way above :frowning: I know 130 works well and I often stop there but I accidentally go way higher a lot… It’s lovely, I feel good but it has disadvantages. I only want it occasionally, that’s fine.

I eat much so it get its fuel, even high protein and lots of nutrients… What has my body against my precious eggs and a decent amount of meat? Why it wants so much meat that I can’t fit my eggs without eating too much? That is what I don’t understand. But maybe it needs something from the meat now and more than ever (it didn’t want it until lately. I barely ate meat in the beginning and it was FINE apparently)… I don’t know. Or it just sabotages me on my fat-loss mission, it’s possible… It’s what it does since ages, it started way before keto. But I won’t give up. I want chill and energy asap, I am very patient if it’s about my weight. A bit less now, I have been stalling enough but it’s not my first priority.
But my body doesn’t want much meat all the time, just sometimes. But then very much, messing up my macros. I blamed my low-meat times before, that was understandable and fine but now I eat more meat, I don’t have those low-meat times anymore. I just have days when I fancy more eggs so my meat intake drops somewhat. Eggs are great too and they aren’t alone at all…

My body doesn’t give me energy even if I overeat protein and fat :frowning: And I ALWAYS eat too much to lose fat so lack of fat isn’t something my body can complain about. And it would want fat or food in general then, not meat. It’s not even protein, I already had my 130g protein when it wants specifically MEAT on those days (and I had a decent amount of that too). It only wants eggs when I neglected them (rare). I am not even necessarily hungry then, my body just consider something lacking and wants it on the same day.

Oh well, I just try to stop thinking about these for a while. Maybe something will magically solved.


I just watched the first video in @Septimius list.

Fasting blood glucose 5.8mmol/l (104 mg/dl), blood ketones 0.1 mmol/l.

It was great. Makes sense to direct one’s body to a ketogenic state to use fat for fuel and feel better (more energy in one’s day)

They also talked about the Glucose Ketone Index, Glucose to Ketone Ratio for healing using mmol/l as the measurement unit for G and K. That relates to the Palaeolithic Ketogenic Diet way of eating as a therapeutic diet.

There was not much mention of protein sparing modified fasting - which is the opposite approach to dietary fat. Demonstrating that different approaches are available for people at different levels of discovery.

The outcome for me is to experiment and lift my ketones by trying a slight adjustment up in fat ratio.

(Megan) #87

I joined the KetoAF facebook group and tried the much higher fat/lower protein approach for about 4 weeks to see if I experienced an increase in energy. Low energy was one of the things the Kelly Hogan and Amber O’Hearn video said this way of eating can improve.

I mostly struggled because I hate the taste of butter and ghee, intensely dislike the taste of beef fat, and was strongly advised not to use dairy too often (heavy cream and cream cheese) as a way to meet my fat macro. That left very fatty pork (shoulder with a thick fat cap and belly) as my main source of fat. Shoulder is a very affordable cut of meat but pork belly is ridiculously expensive.

Another problem was food/eating lost all joy for me. It just didn’t taste great. I like very fatty pork but after a while I got sick of it. I’d have cream cheese with a steak and it just ruined it. I tried eating the cream cheese 1st then the steak, to preserve the enjoyment of eating the steak, but that was even less enjoyable.

I didn’t experience an increase in energy, I experienced the opposite.

My ketones didn’t increase. Still 0.2 pretty much every time.

I hate tracking and weighing and dicking with portion size. It makes me too focused on food. I’m much happier and feel freer doing carni as I do it - eating when hungry, eating whatever and however much I feel like.

4 weeks may not have been long enough to experience the benefits but I decided to stop. There were just too many downsides for me.

(Linda ) #88

No we are all different normal carnivore works for you so no need to change it to anything else but there is alot of ppl it never worked for there…there are ppl gaining up to 60 lbs and still trying thank goodness I didn’t go back up that high before trying this

And Kelly is the first to tell ppl try normal carnivore first and if works then no need to go anywhere else but if it doesn’t there are alternatives.

@FrankoBear Dr Cywes said psmf was a complete failure for his patients he said most ppl it wasn’t sustainable

(Megan) #89

How on earth are people gaining 60 pounds on carnivore? Are they eating a ton of dairy?

(Megan) #90

Yes, it’s currently working for me, as far as slow and steady weight loss goes. It’s also a fairly sustainable way of eating for me, albeit expensive. I do get tired of the lack of variety sometimes, but that feeling passes. I wanted to try to the higher fat/lower protein woe b/c the video said it could help with people with very low energy, something I am still really struggling with 7 months down the line. It’s completely possible no way of eating will help with this tho, but I wanted to give it a try.

(Judy Thompson) #91

Psmf isn’t meant to be sustainable. It’s like a 3 day jump start, never to do much longer without a break. I did it the 1st 10 days of 2022 but 3 or 4 days with a day’s break between. Extreme tracking. Extreme hunger. A nightmare to shop for and prepare!
Then from Jan 12th, carnivore and the long road to fat adaptation. Big D every day and night for 60 days, y’all who were here remember me whining! (most of you were here.)
Well I guess I’m just at the point where I know how much fat I can tolerate. I used to eat lots of fat but now I don’t think so. Too much pork or too much fat on my steak and I’m right back there.
I think for me, a good moderate zero plant-carb diet with all the natural attached fat God intended, will be the way my plan will go. (I will drink coffee with hwc and I will imbibe small amounts of alcohol.)
I love my carnivore woe! It works. Nobody even notices. I’m happy.

By the way the flu I thought I had this week turned out to be cedar allergies! In Central Texas, cedar trees pollenate in January and over half the local population loses its collective voice! So we went to work, having decided we’d chance passing on whatever we have - and everybody said nope, it’s not the flu. You have cedar fever :face_with_thermometer::joy:
Here’s some food from today and yesterday. Mostly brisket.

Ok. All brisket.
Had eggs in the evenings.

(Judy Thompson) #92

Okay! Thanks and it’s now 2:30 am. Dog was scratching and throwing fleas (real or imagined, probably both) all over the bed so an hour ago I got up, ran the sink FULL of soap and water and bubbled her up. She now sports a new Serestro flea collar and I’m hoping for a restful test of this night.


I think a lot about how when we get started, we - understandably - just want someone to tell us the perfect way to be on plan.

But I don’t think there is a perfect way.

I think we’re all at different stages of health, whether it’s fat loss or muscle building, whether we’re handling illness and recovery, our age/sex, our physical health history etc.

And I think that at different stages on this way of eating, we need different things.

For me, carnivore was great. My brain enjoyed the simplicity of not tracking macros/calories/food. Cooking was massively simplified. Shopping was easier and less frequent (albeit expensive). I wholeheartedly recommend carnivore; it really did solve lots of little issues that I had, and I lost weight and I built muscle.

Sometimes bodies change whilst on plan - maybe my body was finally satisfied with the protein it was fed over the last two years, and now it needs something else. Maybe it’s just that I’ve been exceptionally sick and my body needs something different for recovery.

But I think that’s why being in communities is sometimes hard - because lots of people jump off one plan and onto another plan, sometimes without reason or without doing the research themselves to see if it’s something that would be suitable in their personal circumstances. (I’m not saying you did this! I’m talking generally!)

I totally understand why, especially when people see the quick successes of others, and with the media obsession of ‘lose 10lbs in 5 days’ style headlines, which makes people think that their progress should be a lot faster. It’s hard to accept that if your body changed over 10 years, it might take more than 1 year to put it right.

My advice would always be to try to be carnivore and then try to be as strict carnivore as you can, and then only mess with other inputs (like macro ratios) once you’ve been on plan a couple of years and you have real reason to make a change. Conversely, if someone is two years on carnivore and seeing progress / maintaining, then there’s no need to change.


off early for 8am dental cleaning for kiddo.

home later to eat chicken and alfredo sauce. then second meal I got a steak earmarked. but might reverse that order, one never knows but I do have a hankering for alfredo :slight_smile: and when I do, I will actually take the time to make some LOL

zc strong all!

(Megan) #95

Hi @Septimius

When I decided to go carnivore, due to getting way too obsessed with and at times stressed by tracking and macros etc on keto, and measuring ketones and never seeing ketones above 0.2, I just looked up what foods one can eat, picked those I enjoy, and started eating. I read someone say there’s no need to track etc on carnivore and said “I’m in!” lol I agree, I don’t think there is a perfect way either.

This is one of the reasons I love our monthly thread. The overall vibe is relaxed and steady.

Unfortunately the fatigue is quite debilitating most days so it felt like a good idea at the time to change my macros to see if it would help, given very low energy was one of the things this particular woe can help resolve. There are other tweaks I could try, like completely ditching dairy, but for now I’m happy to just carry on as I have been. I value how low stress it is immensely.

I defrosted my chest freezer today in preparation for 60 kg of raw meat for my pup arriving in a couple of days. The ice layer was crazy thick in places and I made a mental note to defrost yearly. I woke tonight after about an hours sleep and couldn’t get back to sleep so I decided to get up. It’s horribly humid tonight and my mind is very busy. I also feel quite out of sorts.

Although lots of things are bothering me right now I’m beginning to wonder if the problem is actually physical, and all these thoughts and feelings are just hopping onboard for the ride. My experience on carnivore to date, bathroom-wise, is I go every 1-2 days. Smallish amount, easy to pass. Since this abdominal hernia has been really bugging me I hardly go at all and it’s not at all easy to pass when I do. Upping my magnesium has always had a strong laxative effect in the past but it’s doing nothing now. Even laxatives, taken several times a day for several days, is doing very little.

Is this a “normal” thing to happen on carnivore for some people some of the time? I haven’t changed what I’m eating and I feel pretty confident I drink enough water. Abdominal hernias, when they’re acting up, can cause constipation (and bowel obstructions and all sorts of other things) so I’m thinking this is the most likely cause. I don’t feel bunged up and very uncomfortable in the way I did when I was constipated while eating a lot of carbs, but I definitely feel something. Very out of sorts is the best I can do to describe it.

I have a doctors appt next week to get referred back to the surgical team, but in the absence of a surgical emergency type situation it’s probably going to be months before I see them. Anyone know any carnivore friendly remedies for constipation? Maybe a heck of a lot of fat?


Saturday is a mystery, I don’t track that complicated day.
Sunday experiment: Wow, more protein in percentage than fat, I rarely see such things from me… Very low-cal, very satiating, very far from carnivore (I mean, much plant matter, NOT much carbs, still keto :)). Probably cheaper, won’t calculate it right now. I am sooo full and lazy, it’s raining all day and will tomorrow too, they say…

So, carnivore day #1 again and I try to stick to it for a long while.

I got hungry moderately early again today, fortunately not at noon, a bit later. I could have waited if I really wanted but my body already expressed its desire to eat so I ate with Alvaro. In the super dark kitchen. It rarely get’s direct sunlight anyway but now it’s not very much light outside in the rain to begin with… Soooo gloomy.

Okay so I tested the high fat/protein ratio and even the “fat first” thing that is very much incompatible with me normally but

  1. after the lowish-fat yesterday (63g fat, 144g protein) I actually found the idea of eating really fatty nice.
  2. this pork jowl isn’t as fatty as the other one. only 71.2% fat according to the label (obviously different slabs aren’t the same)! In weight. I can’t stop finding it hilarious that one can buy a very tasty “meat” product with 86% fat in weight :smiley: Well this one is better as it has much, much more lovely meat in it! I tried, the pure fat is nice too. But the meat is better. It has some lovely ratio for a fatty treat when in need. I keep this. Even if I need to visit ALDI more often… Sigh. So many supermarkets to visit, I try to limit it but each have its own gems.

So, I started with the pork jowl. YUM! When I was almost satiated, had a slice of pork chuck roast, somewhere along the way a soft-boiled egg… Then more pork jowl, another egg, more chuck and an egg milk too. Oh and 50g sour cream too.
161g fat, 59g protein for my lunch and it’s so many calories that I better don’t eat more today but maybe I will. But I don’t have a proper lean protein source I could eat galore now… So hopefully I won’t get hungry. But I will have ideas if I will.

85% fat, 14% protein, 1% carbs :slight_smile: Lol. My unusual macros entertain me.

My food was…

  • Lovely, I enjoyed it.
  • Small in volume and duration, it may be fine or not, I don’t know yet. But I probably can handle one day like this. Oh as it was gloomy, I couldn’t even focus on my meal as normal (I have a big relief too, paperwork troubles are gone! but it wasn’t easy on Alvaro who made most of the phone calls), I was half-asleep… Still, it was a nice meal. So no problem there.
  • I feel a bit… Off? Not nauseous at all but it was noticeable I did something somewhat extreme… It’s similar to what I had yesterday: I feel something OFF and while I am fine, kind of, I definitely don’t want to do this for my next meal.

But I went pretty far today, it just happened, I would plan a tad more normal meals, definitely with sponge cakes as they feel dry in a good sense, no wonder I consider them my buns. Fatty pork jowl and runny eggs, they would welcome some more neutral, dry stuff.

The pork jowl was a tad salty, that’s why I ate an egg with it (and because I eat eggs with everything) but really just a tad, no problem :slight_smile:

We will see what happens later but it’s exciting! I want to experiment with fat/protein ratio this week, it makes things fun! And if I eat like today, my meal is finished so quickly I have no way to get bored with my food :smiley: And as I barely ate meat, tomorrow can be meatier and it won’t be boring either… But then I bring other meats, turkey, pork tongue (I have 4! never will buy less, they are small and awesome and fit a pot)… With some fattier days here and there, I may find the variety and fun I couldn’t for long enough this far…

I want to eat soup soon. Still no bony meat, my old, never realized ragout idea then? Is there a thing as no veggie ragout? Surely is or will be. I open a precious box of cream for it!


I don’t think it’s normal as you had it okay before and even if it would get rare for some reason, harder to pass doesn’t sound good. It’s understandable it was worse on high-carb as we have way more accumulated waste there, normally…

I hope others will have tips for laxative…

(Robin) #98

Cedar Fever! Never heard of it!
That brisket. Girl……


I don’t know why but I feel wonderful now :slight_smile: Just a bit sleepy. Still don’t want such fatty meals all the time :smiley: But here and there? Sounds good. Unless I will get hungry and eat a ton later but I don’t think so.

I never heard about cedar fever either…

(Megan) #100

This is the kind of advice some people on the ketoAF facebook group got when they continued to gain more and more weight. If I was consistently gaining weight on carnivore I’m damned if I’d “give it 2 years”.

However, on saying that, the road to better health when eating keto or carnivore is not a short one. I see the “try this and try that then try something else” approach some of the new to keto people on the forum take. It’s like they approach a way of eating like it’s a prescription drug, which are often designed to produce fast responses (when they work). Patience is definitely a virtue, and even more so in this fast paced, big promises and instant results world we live in.