Newbie! trying not to tie myself in knots about getting keto perfect

(Old Baconian) #41

Richard Morris, one of the Two Keto Dudes who run this site, has calculated that 3.2 grams of protein per kg of lean body mass is the point at which ammonia toxicity starts to be of concern. This is because excess amino acids cannot be stored; instead, they must be deaminated and dealt with, and the resulting ammonia has to be converted to uric acid and excreted.

The uric acid pathway has a limit to how much ammonia it can handle. So if you start to smell ammonia on your breath or in your perspiration, you are probably eating too much protein and should cut back.

Kidney issues

No one can tell but you should feel when it’s too much. I personally try to stay around 2g/kg for LBM as it’s enough but not too excessive yet (but less is impossible for me), it works for me according my long experiences. Comfortable, easy, comes naturally, I really don’t have problems with my protein intake when I eat a moderate amount of food. And if I need much more, I add fattier things, I like them anyway. I don’t like most lean protein and even if I eat the ones I like, I automatically add more fat. It can be done consciously if someone needs it. I can enjoy leaner and fattier meat alike (even though my tastes draw me to pork chuck level) so if I know I need a lot of energy, I can focus on the fattier ones - and I grab some when my main protein source for the day happen to be lean as well.
But maybe I shouldn’t have written this, I do low-carb and experiment and analyze since ages and I know I think too much about these things, I am not simple enough… You just do keto, low carbs, nice protein sources, extra fat if your protein is too lean… Maybe things will fall into place without any extra effort from your part. My protein intake always was quite fine all by itself, I love protein and I love fat and my energy intake isn’t huge enough to reach some insane protein amount using my typical fatty protein sources.
Even not knowing much about you, 150 sounds fine to me. But some carnivores eat way, way, way more even being slim short women… 300 is okay for some and way too much for others, you don’t know until you try. But 300 sounds excessive, I would only do that if I just couldn’t eat less comfortably. I eat way more than my estimated protein need because it would be a horribly restrictive, stressful woe to eat only an adequate amount and it’s not high enough for me to do that (I couldn’t do that anyway, I don’t have the personality to force myself without a very good reason). But it’s easy to stay below 200g (most of the time) so I do that. But if I would be hungry with only 200g even if I try whatever is convenient to me and my body would feel just great above, I would go higher, my body is supposed to know its stuff better than me ;).

(Ivy) #43

There is no conclusion as to whether it is possible for me to get fat adapted?

Or is it sill possible for me, even though I had an accident cheat meal ?

(Old Baconian) #44

This question has actually been answered. To repeat, as a newbie you have delayed your progress by a day or two. Fat adaptation takes, generally speaking, six to eight weeks, so in the scheme of things, a day of accidental carb intake is not a problem.

(Ivy) #45

Ok. It was confusion about someone that had mentioned in a message to me. I’ll be more careful next time

(Jane) #46

Is that limit one meal? In a 12-hr period? 24 hrs?

(Jane) #47

The reason I ask is for me that would be a little over 2 lbs of ribeye steak (34 oz) or 163 g protein.

I certainly could not eat that much meat in one meal. Not even sure in a day, although I thought carnivores routinely ate 2 lbs of meat a day.

(Old Baconian) #48

I went back to one of Richard’s posts on the topic, and the figure appears to be 3.2 g/kg LBM/day. Given the range of individual variability, I’d say that if you smell of ammonia at any point, even an intake lower than that, you need to cut back on the protein. Ammonia toxicity is not fun and can be fatal.

That said, people’s nitrogen needs vary considerably, and it is possible that the efficiency of their uric acid pathway might vary considerably as well. Still, ammonia toxicity is not fun and can be fatal.

(Ivy) #49

Is that what you are saying I did with the cheat meal? And another cheat meal, if i ever did one?

(Ivy) #50

24 hours

(Ivy) #51

Why doesn’t the definition of keto change, then? moderate protein to something else?


@PaulL What’s the carb limit for those who are physically active?

I know for myself. My carb limit is higher than 20G/day on OMAD and I remember reading a paper posted by @amwassil that anything over 100 grams is definitely not ketoic.

Maybe her carb limit is higher? 40 grams a day?

I believe it’s better for her to be consistent with her carb intake until she’s fully adapted than drop her carbs too low and then she instinctively eats a cheat meal.

(Ivy) #53

Protein increases hunger. That’s sad its not even in the forum’s defined aspects of keto–and unfortunate for to those just starting out.

I know that much.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #54

A lot of folks here will disagree with you. Maybe it increases your hunger. Then again, maybe your hunger is driven by too little protein and your body wants to keep eating until it gets enough. :flushed:

Protein causing hunger is not a defining aspect of keto. You are mistaken to think it is.

(Ivy) #55

You’re actually right – there’s a study that it is so in males. I just looked it up. Maybe I thought I was a dude for the day.

(Ivy) #56

But further on this topic:

Blais, A., Chaumontet, C., Azzout-Marniche, D., Piedcoq, J., Fromentin, G., Gaudichon, C., … & Even, P. C. (2018). Low-protein diet-induced hyperphagia and adiposity are modulated through interactions involving thermoregulation, motor activity, and protein quality in mice. American Journal of Physiology-Endocrinology and Metabolism, 314(2), E139-E151.

In mice, too. “possibly humans” they state.
Another stufy “HP breakfast decreased postprandial ghrelin concentrations”
My bad.

(Ivy) #57

My ketones are back 3 days later okie dokie

(Old Baconian) #58

I’m not sure what you are asking, here. The Dudes’ definition of moderate protein is 1.0-1.5 g/kg LBM/day, which at maximum is about half the amount that will cause ammonia toxicity. Why would the definition of keto need to change?

An individual’s carb limit depends on their insulin response to the carbohydrate in their diet. Glucose (which is what carbs are made of) in quantity in the blood stream is dangerous, hence the active insulin response to drive it into muscle to be metabolised and adipose tissue to be stored as fatty acids. As insulin-resistance increases, it takes more and more insulin to achieve the same effect. So one person’s insulin response to a given amount of carbohydrate might knock that person out of ketosis, while another person’s insulin response might be low enough to allow that second person to remain in ketosis. We recommend sticking to the limit of 20 g carbohydrate/day until fat adaptation is achieved, at which point one can experiment a bit to see whether one’s body might tolerate a bit more carbohydrate without inhibiting ketosis.

I would like to see some data to back up that assertion, since it is contrary to the experience of virtually everyone on these forums.

(Ivy) #59

It was a mistake I posted as its only in males

(Ivy) #60

I learned that protein doesnt matter unkess ammonia toxicity – that still means more than answer from keto calcultor – If keto calculator is wrong, then it should be fixed to include abovementioned.
then the definition of keto WoE