Newbie - three weeks into mostly Carnivore and a sore lower back - right side


(Tom) #1

New Zealand newbie - male - 55 years old - 59kgs so not looking for weight loss.

Eating mostly scotch fillet and lamb.
Drinking water and tea with some added coconut butter for extra fat about three / four times a week.
A little cheese and about 4 eggs a couple of times a week.

I have developed some lower back pain on the right (left side is fine) over the last few days. It is felt at the top of the buttock and lower back. Not unbearable - mostly uncomfortable - very noticeable when turning, stretching, reaching etc. When sitting just a dull, nagging pain.

I am in good health, taking no medications and run, walk the dogs and exercise mildly. Definitely not an injury!

I would welcome any wisdom from the group.
Thanks


(Hannah) #2

It could be your kidney. You might have problems with them even if you seem healthy. Lots of organ problems go unnoticed until they become extreme.


(Chris) #3

This, and keto/carnivore generally highlights these issues. Try potassium/magnesium supplements before trying a doctor, and I’d drop the coconut butter, just eat.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

Sounds like the sort of thing that needs the attention of the doctor. A vertebra could be slipping and pinching a nerve, or you might have developed stones in the kidney or gall bladder, or . . . there are plenty of things, all of which you would want to attend to.


#5

I did have backache quite a bit when I first started keto, went off after about 3 weeks, I put it down to detoxing- I read somewhere that it was possible when first starting keto, can’t remember where I read it though



#6

How long has this been going on?
If it’s longer than a week you should see a doctor
 I hope you feel better soon!


#7

I’m new here, and this is my first post, but I have to chime in, I agree with those saying it might be your kidney, please see your doctor!

I hope you feel better soon. Keep us posted.


(Rushme) #8

I agree it could be the kidneys. High protein diet without the greens puts an imbalance of various vitamins and minerals (mostly potassium, sodium and magnesium) resulting in strained kidney functions and unsuccessful release of all the uric acid which is a byproduct of protein metabolism.


(Elizabeth ) #9

(Chris) #10

Important takeaway from this article:

What about people who already have kidney disease?

This is where things get interesting. Even if healthy kidneys have no problem with a high dietary protein intake, once someone’s kidney function is already compromised, there does seem to be some merit in reducing protein consumption. However, even here, the evidence is less impressive than we’re usually led to believe. I mean, this is sort of the third rail of low carb diets, right? Sure, healthy kidneys can handle however much protein you cram down your piehole (Steakhole? Do we need a new slang term for this?), but people who are already dealing with kidney disease need to go low protein. Need to. Right? Right?

I’m not ready to say that protein restriction is unnecessary in cases of impaired kidney function, but like I said, with all the buzz about this, you would think the clinical evidence would be more compelling.

“Not only are there zero case reports of kidney injury from high protein diets—the medical dogma of restricting protein in chronic kidney disease is almost purely mythical.” (Theodore Naiman, MD.)

Protein restriction being warranted in those with advanced kidney disease is less convincing than you’d expect. In a study of patients with chronic renal failure, a low protein diet (0.4 to 0.6 g/kg/d) delayed the progression rate of renal failure only in patients with primary glomerular disease, and only in males. Female patients did not benefit at all. Considering primary glomerular disease accounts for only about 7% of all kidney disease (with 44% attributed to diabetes and 28% to hypertension, which, as I mentioned, are basically the same disease, so really, 72%), this is an intervention that would benefit very few people. Protein restriction should not be dismissed for the few individuals whom it would help, but it should not be recommended across the board for all kidney patients, and certainly not for healthy people with no valid reason to limit protein intake.

A different study of patients with chronic renal failure showed that a diet of 0.6g/kg/d led to no significant difference in rate of fall of creatinine clearance compared to a diet that met the RDA of 0.8g/kg/d. It’s possible that an even greater reduction in protein intake might have resulted in a more favorable outcome, but 0.5g/kg/d or lower would likely not be sustainable and could conceivably lead to problems from protein malnutrition. (Yes, there most definitely is such a think as a diet too low in protein, but “too high,” so far, is very vague.)

Even in studies where protein reduction is shown to be beneficial in those with kidney disease, the results typically aren’t all that spectacular. At best, restriction merely slows the decline in function, rather than halting or reversing it. This isn’t reason to dismiss protein reduction as a therapeutic strategy (because why wouldn’t you want to slow the decline?), but patients should be made aware of the cost/benefit ratio. I’d like to see studies on carbohydrate restriction in kidney disease. It is very, very difficult to reverse kidney damage and restore healthy function. Maybe the most people can hope for is to slow the decline or maybe stop it from getting worse. But I’ve heard “anecdotal” reports that kidney function improves, if only slightly, after a while on a ketogenic diet.

Considering the role of diabetes and hypertension in causing kidney disease, I can’t imagine carbohydrate restriction would be any worse than protein restriction, and I can imagine multiple ways that it would be better. As I have argued with regard to Alzheimer’s disease, I would speculate that, if impaired kidney function were identified early enough, and a ketogenic diet implemented immediately, there’d be a stronger potential for restoration of healthy function. The problem with chronic kidney disease, just like with Alzheimer’s, is that by the time you start showing signs & symptoms, the disease is already quite advanced: the first stage of chronic renal failure is called “diminished renal reserve,” and this is the state someone’s in until 75% of functioning nephrons are lost. During this stage, the remaining nephrons enlarge and compensate for the loss of the others, so the person has no signs or symptoms. Only when things get even worse than this does stage 2 happen—“renal insufficiency.” This is when the glomerular filtration rate decreases (the kidneys are much slower at filtering blood) and abnormalities are measurable in the blood and urine. (This is why you see GFR measured on routine bloodwork—it’s an indicator of kidney function.) But by this point, you’re already down to less than 25% of healthy kidney function!

One of the low carb MDs I know sent me a link to this paper, in which a low(er) carb diet that was also low in bioavailable iron and high in polyphenols delayed progression of kidney disease and reduced mortality (at least during the follow up period of 3.9 ± 1.8 years) in type 2 diabetics with kidney disease or “unexplained proteinuria” compared to the standard control diet. Oddly enough, this standard control diet was called a “protein restricted” diet, yet it called for 0.8g/kg. Funny how these kidney researchers even considered 0.8g/kg to be a restricted protein intake, huh? (And so many keto newbies think that’s the maximum they should be consuming. Oh, man
the LOLZ.) (The control diet was 65% carb, 25% fat, 10% protein; the low carb diet called for 35% carbs, 30% fat, 25-30% protein, 5-10% alcohol [for the red wine polyphenols or some such]. So the low carb diet was nowhere near ketogenic, but compared to 65% carbs, 35% is a substantial reduction.) To be clear, most of the subjects on the lower carb diet still declined; they just declined more slowly, and there were fewer deaths during the follow-up period. How much better might the results have been if this was actually a truly low carb diet? This is quite promising, though, because it shows that even when the diet is still 35% carbs, a low- ish carb diet has a more favorable impact on kidney disease progression than a low protein diet.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

Excellent post, Chris! I wish I could like it multiple times. :+1: :+1: :+1:

Ivor Cummins and Dave Feldman interviewed Dr. Joseph Kraft before he died. Apparently, he believed it was possible to diagnose incipient insulin resistance years before serum glucose rises. (I don’t remember the details, unfortunately. Do you, by any chance?) I bring this up because you mentioned what a large percentage of kidney disease is linked to diabetes and hypertension—in other words, metabolic syndrome.


(Chris) #12

I hadn’t seen that interview, I shall look for it!


#13

Kraft was running tests using glucose tolerance alongside insulin clamping, which allowed him to identify hyperinsulinemia before the OGTT test showed impaired glucose tolerance.

Very simplified: he argued/showed on 1000s of tests, that hyperinsulinemia (insulin resistance) predates T2 diabetes by decades, and is also present and a predictor for heart disease and other aspects of ‘metabolic syndrome’

The vid is on youtube and well worth the viewing, but is rather long. Think it is called something like ‘Kraft, father of the insulin assay’ but i might be wrong.

A man ahead of his time, and tragically unrecognised until after his retirement. Sadly now deceased.


#14

There are many possible reasons for pain in the area of the back you describe.

(for me, it is sacro-illeac joint pain)

Get thee to a doc for a proper diagnosis! :blush:


(Tom) #15

Update: 5 days later - feeling much better.

This is what I have done:
In case it was kidney -
Daily I have had the juice of one lemon - I have also had two tablespoons ACV and a teaspoon of Cream of Tartar. I have consciously upped my water intake.
I have taken a Digestive support tablet (Solgar Digestive Enzymes) each meal and Magnesium (Ethical Nutrients - Mega Magnesium) daily.
I have drunk no tea at all. I have had no coconut butter.
Meat and water and a little Vintage Cheddar only.

In case it was an injury - I have stretched gently, applied heat, self-massaged the sore area, rested.

Still a little sore today but able to complete normal daily tasks comfortably. Appears to be on the mend. Otherwise feeling pretty good - thank you to all for your posts - plenty to think about.


(Taleisha Collins) #16

It sounds like a pinch nerve maybe 
 I had that years ago, and what you are describing sounds very familiar.
You might want to check with your doctor


(Tom) #17

Update: A couple of weeks have passed. The pain has been a bog-standard muscle injury which has responded well to rest and treatment.

Eating full carnivore and only drinking water - another five weeks to go for the 90 days.

Mostly feeling great - maybe not eating enough some days.


(Spicycheese ) #18

hello im 22 recovering from a tbi and thought id try carnivore and see how i feel i felt amazing tho id crash alott due to me feeling so good id forget my boundrary line on things i cou;d and couldnt do. i just reached the end of my third week and started getting excruciating back pains on the right side of my lower back just on top of my buttok. i do water meats salt eggs,cheese once in awhile mct oil and all my natural suppliments
the pain in my lower back is so painful it shoots down my right leg especially when im sitting down
any idea what could be causing it?


#19

Sciatica. a form of pain that radiates along the sciatic nerve. Your sciatic nerve extends from your lower back, through your hips and butt, and down your legs. If you experience sciatica pain, it will typically occur on one side of your body.

Your pain sounds a lot like Sciatica but may possibly be associated with your TBI. See your doctor.

Unlikely to be anything to do with your diet.


(Edith) #20

It could be coincidental, but it could also be kidney pain due to oxalate dumping. Oxalates are crystals found only in plant foods. Spinach is a prime example of a high oxalate food. When you go on a carnivore diet, it is the ultimate low oxalate diet.

When a person lowers or stops eating foods that contain oxalate, their body starts to dump out the crystals that have have built up over the years. This dumping usually beings 2-3 weeks after ceasing to eat oxalate containing foods.

There are many symptoms for oxalate dumping: kidney pain, joint pain, cloudy urine, crusty eyes
 It is quite an extensive list. Oxalates have been discussed in this forum many times and you may want to search the web as well. Sally Norton is an expert on oxalates and their effect on the body.

Although oxalate dumping can be really uncomfortable, overall it is a good thing. You can slow down or stop the dumping by eating foods that contain oxalate (or I should probably call it oxalic acid when in plant form.) That can also be a test to see if the pains are caused by dumping. If you eat some high oxalate food for a day or two and the pain improves, then dumping was probably the cause.