Newbie Overwhelmed - lots of questions

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #21

I’m a firm believer that our diet should provide what we need, without supplementation. However, some people have a particular problem that means they need supplements. For example, if I don’t take extra Vitamin D, I get deficient, regardless of my diet; that’s just how my body works. But on the whole, I don’t need to worry. A carnivore diet can, in theory at least, provide every needed nutrient, and often they appear in forms better-suited to being absorbed and utilised, than the forms in plants. So unless your body has a particular need, you should be fine without supplements. But if you find you need them, take them; if you find you don’t need them, save your money. It’s that simple.

(Joey) #22

Fully agree that a critical ear should be applied when following anyone else’s advice on the internet (including folks like us here on this forum :wink: ) but I’ll note that Ken Berry, as with a few others, typically bases his guidance on results he’s observed in patients from his own clinical practice, including his own family’s experience.

FWIW, this seems to imbue his suggestions with some credibility from a practical implementation standpoint. From what I can discern, beyond his medical practice, he monetizes his guidance solely by (1) a book and (2) harmless t-shirt bling. His youtube dietary guidance and e-book are essentially free.

(steve) #23

Thank you everyone for your replies and help. It’s just not possible to reply to everyone like I would like. But believe me I’ve read every one over more than once and appreciate every reply.
Over the years I was able to fine-tune my vegetarian diet using the multi-vitamin / mineral supplements recommended by Dr. Wallach. In his 80’s, he still maintains a full speaking schedule, including frequent 2-hour interviews taking call-in questions on late-night talk radio with a level of energy that is remarkable. His recommendations are great for the average American diet, (including low carb, low sugar, no sodas, no grains or processed foods) but definitely not a carnivore diet.
And apparently with a carnivor diet all most all his supplements are not needed. But, per his recommendation, its better to over supplement rather than be deficient in something. That’s why I’m trying all the supplements I’ve seen used on this diet but will cut down or eliminate them as I progress on this new radical way of eating.
Also my swelling has gone down some but still has a way to go to be normal again.
Thank you again, everyone.

#24

To some extent. Overdoing certain micronutrients is pretty bad I heard. I am really careful with Vitamin A, for example. I don’t exactly know how bad it would be to go too far (due to my diet, I never supplement anything on any diet. it worked well when I was a vegetarian and it should be even better now) but I don’t want to take risks.
Of course, there is a range where it’s still probably quite okay to be, I suppose overdosing usually happens when people massively oversupplement something (or eat certain foods in bigger quantities) but there may be a few micronutrients where it is easier, surely individual sensitivities exist too… So I think one should be somewhat careful.
It’s a bit odd too that we can just eat normal food we like and overdo something to the point of problems… But fat soluble vitamins can build up.

#25

I personally only take one serving a day. I’ve never thought of doing more because my intention with the supplement is not to get my full daily dose with it but just to supplement the food/meat I eat. Also I remember having read somewhere that a Keto diet does not require the same high RDA levels, (all RDA levels were kinda set flippantly imho …) so I aim to try to get 2000-2500mg total per day. Lord knows I never got over 1500/day before while on this diet so I knew one serving would be adequate. When I was eating all that junk food pre-keto, I’m sure there was more than enough in packaged foods as it’s used often as an additive, and possibly that’s why my doctor told me the average person gets more than enough from their food each day. Well - most medical advice is given for a public not on a low carb, Frankenfoods diet. Advice for low carb is going to be a lot different.

The form in Berg’s electrolytes is citrate. You brought up a good point about citrate vs gluconate and have really got me thinking this morning. Previously I only understood that for magnesium supplements and I tend to stay away from the citrate because of the laxative effect. If this were primarily a magnesium supplement I wouldn’t be using it because his magnesium in this electrolyte is also the citrate form, but it’s only 120mg. This electrolyte does help to keep me “regular” but without any overly lax effect, thank God. However, when I used the citrate form of magnesium in addition to this electrolyte, it had a severe laxative effect all day. That’s why I now use other forms of magnesium instead.

From what I understand from reading about the potassium this morning, they differ in the similar ways. The pro to the potassium citrate though is the “citrate” can aid in the prevention of kidney stones. However, there is added concern that the citrate form can be damaging to the stomach lining and that was one of the concerns of over supplementation years ago. It’s a good thing I never did more than one dose/day all this time because I have had stomach issues my whole life (reflux and sharp gas pains,) and lately the acid in my stomach is constantly noticeable and uncomfortable all day long, especially when my fat intake is higher. I had it under control with my daily ACV cocktail I take with my vitamins every morning but suddenly starting about two months ago it’s not working as well as I have a constant burn in my stomach, no more reflux but constant burning. I’m wondering if my long term use of this electrolyte in the citrate form has led to that? :thinking: However, in the US potassium supplements on their own are capped at 100mg and I’m not interested in having to take 10 pills of it every day. I will be looking into seeing if I can find another potassium supplement in the gluconate form, but I doubt I’ll find anything at a high enough dose. So frustrating!

I use this one
This is a form that is better absorbed by the body making more of the magnesium available.

Both K2 and D3 are essential to the proper absorption and metabolizing of magnesium. I actually had a medical issue (hyperparathyroidism) that required I supplement my calcium. Calcium requires both D3 and magnesium to properly support it and D3 requires the K2. Magnesium also does better when taken with D3. To aid in my typing I’ll just cut and paste this explanation here: “While vitamin D3 helps your body absorb more calcium, vitamin K2 helps your body transport it to your bones and teeth rather than letting it sit in your arteries and other soft tissues in your body.” K2 is not readily available in foods so taking a supplement of it matters. While I had D3 forms that included K2, they weren’t always the amounts I wanted or they were a less trusty brand. I ended up settling on Sports Research D3 5,000 iu capsules and Bronson Basics Vitamin K2 MK-7 100mcg. That way I can take 1-3 D3s depending on my needs any given week/month without increasing the K. I just keep them separate. Presently I take 10,000iu of D3. But it changes. The K2 I use is this.

There are like 6-7? forms of magnesium. Each does something slightly different. When I was looking for higher magnesium supplementation to “supplement” what I already got in my daily vitamin I looked for a form that caused the least laxative effect. In researching that I found that the one with the least laxative impact was the L-threonate kind. As a bonus it crosses the blood-brain barrier and supports memory and cognitive functioning, so that was a win-win for me. 3 pills provides an extra 144mg and I split that taking one in the morning and two before bed at the same time that I take Drs Best. Two Drs Best provides 200 mg. So my additional daily magnesium supplementation gives me 344mg above and beyond the 120 citrate in my electrolyte and the 100 oxide in my daily vitamin. All four are different types too so I’m not over killing on just one kind. If I had to dial it back I’d get rid of the latter two first because most of it does not become absorbed or available to my body in the forms they are in.

You can do lower dosing by taking only one Drs Best and one or two of the L-Threonate. A lot of people don’t like that the supplemented dose is in 2-3 separate pills. I actually like it because you can scale up or down easily. My needs are higher than an average person, but these brands can be used for a lower administration.

This is the L-threonate I’m using at present. I have it on subscribe and save so it’s cheaper.

I used to use this one. It’s a tad bit cheaper and a solid choice. Both of these brands were recommended as best choice for quality/cost by consumerlab dot com.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #26

That’s a good point. Clinical experience is valuable, too. Another clinician with good case studies who can speak with authority is David Unwin. In fact, Dr. Unwin is somewhere between a synthesiser and a researcher, because his medical practise keeps very good records, which he is also able to present, along with case histories. His wife, Jen, also has a lot of clinical experience on the psychological side. But the Drs. Unwin are not “influencers,” the way Dr. Berry is.

(Peter - Don't Fear the Fat ) #27

Very true. Indeed it’s not that easy to even find Dr Unwin online. It’s almost like they’re (whoever they are) trying to keep a lid on them.
I feel sad about this because it was Unwin that got me started on Keto.
Diabetes UK, where Unwin had a link, actually says they don’t recommend low carb because there’s no research on it’s safety! Jesus please help

(Doug) #28

:smile::smirk::roll_eyes: Oh good grief…

(KM) #29

I know, right? Make sure to avoid water, earth, air, sunshine and meat, we haven’t done enough study of these things to assure their safety. :roll_eyes:

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #30

There has never been any research on the safety of a high-carb, low-fat diet, either, but that doesn’t stop 'em. Just saying. :scream:

(B Creighton) #31

I did not have any swelling when I did keto, but when first starting the body tends to lose electrolytes, and that might cause some swelling in some people. I supplement nightly with magnesium glycinate, sometimes magnesium taurate, a little calcium, boroganic glycine(boron), and zinc which seemed to ride me through with no symptoms. I rely on my morning vitamins for iodine from kelp, and whatever other trace minerals also coming from sea salt.

I use swansonvitamins.com for all my mineral supplements with few exceptions like calcium alphaketoglutarate. They do a lot of their own manufacturing, and if you make an account, you will get regular sale codes to use. Just FYI, there is really nothing special about pink Himilayan salt. The pink comes from iron in the salt. Men who eat red meat generally have plenty of iron, if not too much. Any rock(sea) salt is fine, and will have microdoses of all the essential minerals.

I do not get my vitamins from Swansons. I use only whole food vitamins with methylcobalamin and methylfolate. You should have no problem getting enough thiamin from your food. I generally take my vitamins in the morning with a fatty breakfast for maximum absorpion. I take my minerals at night, except what comes with my multi in the morning.

You mentioned you did not lose any weight doing vegetarian. My wife did lose weight doing almost vegetarian keto, but it was difficult to keep carbs low enough. It involved lots of protein smoothies. I did keto too, and lost weight basically restricting myself to cruciferous vegetables, asparagus.and an entree of meat, seafood or chicken. Carni just doesn’t attract me. Also lots of eggs for breakfast.

(Alec) #32

The Berrys make a decent living from the fees they charge to the members of their online community, which is essentially an extension of their YT presence. So they provide YT advice for free, but there is more support and encouragement to be had in their community, but you have to pay. It’s not mega expensive, but with the numbers involved, they make a good income from this.

I am not criticising them in any way for this… end of the day, they need to make a living, they invest a LOT of time and energy into their online presence, and their declaration is that they think doing this will help as many people as possible, which I find reasonable.

I was in their community for a few months, but in the end I did not see enough value for the money I was paying so I dropped out.

(KM) #33

I find this perfectly reasonable. They’re not promising anything but more personalized advice and support, no miracles or snake oil, just a double dose of their dietary belief system, which is fully available to research in detail before committing. Much like tithing to belong to a church!

That’s not to say it’s necessary to “believe and belong” in order to benefit. I think it’s generous and I take full advantage of the fact that the “unsupported” information is free. Just that from a moral or consumer standpoint they don’t seem to be pushing anything I find objectionable or usurious. And I actually believe Ken when he says that the work he does without pay is his way of doing penance for a lifetime of bad / ignorant advice to his former patients. (That doesn’t meant he’s not allowed to earn a living too, but I appreciate his charity.)

(Joey) #34

@Alecmcq Thank you for the additional info. Having enjoyed his YT content, I overlooked this option when reviewing his website. I’ll update my earlier comment accordingly:

From what I can discern, beyond his medical practice, he monetizes his guidance solely by (1) a book, (2) optional fee-based hand-holding, and (3) harmless t-shirt bling. His youtube dietary guidance and e-book are essentially free.

(KCKO, KCFO 🥥) #35

:rofl::joy::rofl: