New to site - keto adapted but with questions

(Karim Wassef) #1

Hi. I started about 18 months ago at 255lbs and 45yo. I used to lift in college so I was strong but my doctor said my LDL was high, I was prehypertensive and needed medication.

Started my own research and decided LDL was meaningless and my blood pressure was a sign I was insulin insensitive… so was the weight gain.

I went 20g carb keto first, then progressively… IF, then nearly zero carb (near carnivore) then OMAD, then skip day fasting, then 5 day fasting, then 12 day fasting. I’m now doing 4 days fasting a week (8pm Tuesday to 6pm Saturday) with water, minerals and vitamins. I also do OMAD near carnivore keto for the other 3. I’m also weightlifting again.

I’m now 165 and 18.5% BF (scale may be wrong) so 90lbs. Blood pressure back in control. LDL still high but I still consider it meaningless. I only look at TRIs now on my lipid panel. I use blood glucose and ketone testing to see where I’m at. Fasted, I can be as deep at 5-7, normal is 1.5-2.5…

So all is great… but something strange happened after my last 12 day fast…

I used to see my glucose higher (~90) with lower ketones (1.5) in the morning and it would settle to 70 glucose and 2.5 ketone by 6pm before eating. It would go back down after eating to 80 and 1.8 (rough averages).

Now, I wake up at my highest ketone level (80 and 2.5), then it settles DOWN to 70 and 1.8, then drops again after eating to 80 and 1.5… and repeats.

Even on multi day fast days, I start high ~3 and drop throughout the day to 2… but if I don’t eat, it usually goes back up again to 2.5 by evening.

I’m not chasing ketones but I like to use data to understand what is happening. I think this is a sign that I’m ketone adapted and my body is getting more efficient at when I need energy and as I deplete it, it just makes more then.

So it starts me off high to get going with my day, I use up that fuel during the day so it comes down expecting food later… no food, it makes more ketones… if some food comes in, it makes some glucose and continues to burn some ketones. Then at night, it gets to making more ketones to get me started again.

I also notice that my ketones drop more when I lift heavy.

I don’t know if my interpretation of my data is right, so I’m looking for feedback from the community.

Thank you.

Are these normal ketone level fluctuations?
(The amazing autoimmune 🦄) #2

The ketone drop when you lift I would guess is because you use the ketones when you lift for energy so therefore there are less in your bloodstream.

I have only been doing this 3 months so take what I say with a grain of salt.

(Frank) #3

Have you found fasting to be difficult at your current level? The closer I got to 185 lbs at 6’1” EF became such a struggle that I stopped. I do a 3-4 times weekly IF but EFing is off the table.

(Karim Wassef) #4

EF is hard the first two days. After that the hormones that drive hunger stop or recede heavily so the hunger is nearly nonexistent. I found that going IF every day helps me do EF better. It’s just one daily event to overcome vs. several. I also found that being on a lot of good fat the days before I start is important. I go to 85% fat if possible and minimize even protein. I want to be good and deep in ketosis before I even start the EF.

The big trick for me was SALT. All my negative side effects were due to me peeing out minerals without adequate replenishment. Sodium and Potassium basically make everything go. The body is amazing and can even make water from fat if needed, but salt is essential.

I take pink sea salt (baggie) and literally put some in my mouth and down it with water. It keeps me humming.

I also calculate how much I have left in my “fat tank” to see where I am. Assuming I’m at 18.5% body fat at 165, I have a lean mass of about 135. To remain hormonal healthy, I think I should not go below 10%, that means I should not go below 147… so my “tank” is 165-147 = 18lb or x454 to get to grams = 8172g.

That’s x9 for calories ~ 73,500cal so assuming I burn 3000 a day ~ I have about 24 days in me.

Knowing that lets me know that my 12 day fast isn’t even close to “depleting” me and fasting is really a mental exercise to accept that you really can do this and your body is AMAZING!

(Running from stupidity) #5

I don’t test to that level so I can’t help with the questions, I just wanted to say thank you for writing such a well-constructed and -organised post.

(Karim Wassef) #6

Thanks. I’m a scientist by training so methodical in my thinking. :slight_smile:

(Running from stupidity) #7

Not always the way, though :slight_smile:

(Karim Wassef) #8

So anyone else experience this ketone peak first thing in the morning?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

I don’t measure, myself, but your reasoning sounds good. I haven’t encountered anything to the contrary, let’s just put it that way.

I’m in awe of your program. It’s refreshing to see such an educated newcomer to the forums. Most newbies have no idea what they’ve gotten themselves into, unfortunately. I suspect that we should probably be coming to you for knowledge and understanding, rather than the reverse! Please stick around, we need you. :bacon::bacon:

(Karim Wassef) #10

Thanks. Since I’m new to the forum, could someone recommend the right group or thread to ask this question?

:slight_smile:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #11

Newbies is fine, since you’re new to the forums, or possibly Health, Progress, or Show Me the Science might be a better fit? I’ll be happy to move it for you, although Health is locked, so you might not be able to get into it just yet. (It doesn’t take long, however.)

(Diane) #12

Hmmm. In general, on days I’m eating, my early morning ketone levels are my lowest. I should mention that my data set is small as I’ve been unwilling to spend the money to test my ketones multiple times per day very often.

During multi-day fasts, I only test once a day. My ketone levels do keep rising from day to day throughout the fast.

With regards to excercise, I can’t comment from experience, I cannot tolerate excercise due to issues with my health. I do think you’re correct in your assumption that your ketone levels drop as your body uses the ketones to fuel your activity based on what others have reported (nothing specific to link here, just in general).

(Karim Wassef) #13

I used to see the same effect with higher glucose/lower ketones in the morning. However, I think the 12 day fast pushed me into a different mode of ketone adaptation. I’m curious to see if anyone else has seen this reversal.

My theory is that being glucose adapted, my liver “preps” for my morning by generating glucose for burst energy waking up. This is a natural part of the day/night rythm… however… after 12 days fasting (and part of a continuum of general adaptations over 18 months), my body is basically getting more efficient at using ketones as my primary energy source and so now the morning energy “prep” is ketone driven instead of being glucose driven.

This is my theory based on a sample size n=1… I would really like to double this by finding just one more person who’s seen the same. :slight_smile:

(Ken) #14

If you’re training, the keto subforum on bodybuilding.com is a better resource. It’s been around for nearly two decades and is chock full of experienced people.

(Karim Wassef) #15

Thanks! I am training so I’ll check that out.

I think the interesting part here is the intersection of fasting >> drives more energy + hormones >> drives training

For me, training fasted is like a self fulfilling prophecy. The false myth that people who exercise become fit is really that fit people exercise. I used to weightlift to build muscle to burn more fat. Now I burn more fat so I can weightlift to build muscle.

That fundamental reversal in my understanding is key to explaining why all other methods failed me in the past.

(Jane) #16

My experience is the same. Glucose higher in the morning and ketones lower. I normally only use my ketone strips when I am fasting and they do rise the longer I fast and my glucose also drops.

I didn’t waste a ketone strip this morning before I broke my fast because I am sure it was higher than when I went to bed last night so no useful data for my curious head.

(Karim Wassef) #17

I measure because sometimes my assumptions are not reflected in the data… it causes me to reconsider. I know ketone strips are more expensive but the variation over the day is interesting. Sleep, stress, exercise, injury, diet, timing and fasting all have interesting person-specific responses.

(Running from stupidity) #18

They’re also super-inaccurate, so bear that in mind. It’s not very good data you get from them.

(Karim Wassef) #19

I’m using blood ketone strips, not urine. They really use the same principle as glucose strips - converting BHB to hydrogen peroxide and measuring the voltage potential.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23330615/

(Karim Wassef) #20

I’ve been playing around with this and pushing my morning fasted ketone from very low 0.7 to very high 7.3. It’s super consistent and I’d like to be able to explain it.

I’ve literally pushed myself out of ketosis last night to get 0.3 before going to sleep… woke up at 0.7 and it’s been dropping throughout the day again to 0.3 preworkout and 0.2 post.

Hoping someone sees this who has experienced the same thing…