Need help understanding fat cell size vs. number of cells, weight loss and maintenance

weightloss
weightmaintenance
adipose-tissue
(Elli S) #1

Hi,
Is it more difficult to lose weight (and maintain fat loss) if you have lots of small fat cells as opposed to a smaller amount of large fat cells, even if the “total weight” of the fat is the same in both cases?

Would\should there be a different approach to losing weight in either case?

Here’s what I understand:

Let’s say a young 30 yr old has 20% bodyfat. Let’s just assume he weighs 75 kg. So that’s 15kg of fat. Let’s assume this is made up of a million fat cells (I’m just making up a number). As he gets older, and eats a lot of carbs, he grows fat. I am assuming he now has 2 million fat cells, and each has expanded to double the size (again, I’m making up the number for the example). So that would mean he now has 60 Kg of fat, and he weighs 120KG.
So he goes low carb, his insulin goes down, and the fat cells “release” the fat for energy. So the fat cells are getting smaller, perhaps back to normal, but the amount of cells doesn’t change. So he can lose 30 kg this way (simplistic, but this is a thought experiment).
But he is still left with a million “extra” fat cells and 15kg more of fat. So he weighs 90KG.
Do these disappear? Or is that stubborn fat that won’t go away? And if it does go away at some time, through what mechanism would this be, and is LCHF implicated?

And let’s say that he plods on and eats very little. So the cells get even smaller then at the outset, let’s say half size than he started. So now he has 2 million cells, each “half size” so he has 15kg bodyfat, same as when he started, but double the amount of cells, that are half the size. Aren’t the cells just “ravenous” waiting to “pounce” on any extra source of energy floating around, as opposed to a “satiated” cell? Would this explain why maintenance is difficult?

Am i getting this right?

I’d be grateful for some relatively simple explanations for a layman,
Thanks
Elli

#2

You’re born with some make a few more during puberty and from their they just start getting bigger

#3

It is a nice basic explanation but I think there are some factual errors so be careful taking everything in it as fact. For example

Your body’s prime source of energy is glucose. In fact, some cells in your body, such as brain cells, can get energy only from glucose.

We all know this is not entirely accurate.

My understanding is fat cells live 10 years so a certain percentage replace themselves every year. If you are unhealthy and then become healthy, the fat cells under the old regime will not be the same as the new fat cells. Fat is not an inert organ, it secretes hormones.

I believe during pregnancy is another time that fat cells can be added. Finally is seems to be individual. We all know TOFIs who develop T2 and decline much faster than more robust people. The reason, because they are unable to store the excess sugar so it gets stored in their organs. We also know heavy people who have perfect glucose scores. One theory is that they are still able to make new fat cells that are not insulin resistant so they are able to store the excess sugar and get it out of the bloodstream. Does not mean they are healthy but they are at least not diabetic. This seems to be particularly common in people who grew up on the simpler food of the 1960s and were that one fat kid in the class in 1970 and are heavy now but not morbidly obese. I have a friend like that, her BMI was in the high 30s, has been heavy her whole life and started IF and has lost 40 lbs simply from only eating 8 hours a day. I am jealous since she eats whatever she wants within reason and is still losing weight. This will not apply to the person in the example who was not heavy as a child

#5

That was not my experience. I had been on a moderate carb eating regime 75-150 carbs I calculated later based on food diaries and no grains from November 2016. I lost 15 lbs that I had regained from a prior weight loss (had lost a significant amount of weight, about 60 lbs in 2010 that I slowly mostly regained by 2014) by February 2017 and then stalled. I discovered fasting but more 24 - 36 hours and then expanded it to days in March 2017. Then started keto in April 2017 not because the weight was not coming off but because I wanted to avoid pre diabetes which runs in my family. Lost another 35 lbs by September and have been stalled ever since. She will catch up to me soon which is good and maybe I hope keep losing.

My friend is a huge yoyo dieter and this is coming off better than anything she has ever tried. She has done Atkins a million times but cannot stick to it after a few months. This she sticks to because whatever she wants she knows she can have the next day

(Candy Lind) #7

All the cells in the body age and get replaced, so the old fat cells that are no longer needed will be “eaten” by the body in the process called autophagy. One reason fasting is recommended as you progress on a ketogenic diet is that it induces an increased level of autophagy. You can read a lot more about autophagy here in the forums and/or pick up “The Obesity Code” by Dr. Jason Fung.

I don’t know for sure how long it takes for the human body to replace all its cells, but there’s a place in one of the 2KD podcasts where @richard talks about a time in the future where his body will no longer have any cells that “remember” being sick (since cells adapt & “remember” our metabolic derangement, that’s a very good thing!).

#8

I have not lost any weight since September 2017. I am over 50 (but most people think early 40s), average height female and my BMI is probably 33 or so but I look more like a 30 (I do not tell anyone my weight, the labor room nurse got it passed to her on a note with my children). I can fit into normal female American dress sizes. I started out about a 22W in 2016 and am now a 14 regular since last December although I do not shop much as I have no need for dress clothes and bought a bunch last year for some occasions. Everything still fits and nothing is tight or loose. I seem to be gaining and losing in a 15 lb range. The numbers are the middle of the range. I rarely track and while I would like to lose more, I do not care that much about it. I started exercising a couple of weeks ago, more as a stress reliever and gained 5 lbs even though I was eating less. I usually do about a 10 hour eating window but it is not absolute. I have started really narrowing that recently and will see if that helps. The added weight got me a little nervous.

Have not eaten yet today but yesterday had 2 eggs in oil, 4 thin slices turkey bacon (do not eat pork), one small wholly guacamole, 5 blackberries, cup of caulimash (Brenda’s recipe), 2 coffees with HWC and about 4 ozs of cheese. I meant to have dinner but was too busy and was not hungry anyway

(Bunny) #10

I like Dr. Michael Eades theory on ‘reverse electron transport’ activity within fat cells and not eating things cooked in hydrogenated polyunsaturated fats. Plant based oils/fats are very very volatile and subject to oxidation, rancidness (will start missing electrons) even if they are extra virgin cold pressed. Heat treated or chemical extraction forget it, you will just remain fat or gain it back if you cook your food in it!

Why I try to avoid eating anything cooked in vegetable (plant) oils hydrogenated or not! Fish being exception because it does not require much heat but fish I like eating raw anyway or lightly seared!

And also consider Genes or SNP’s (genetic predisposition with saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats) playing a role in this?

And of course let’s not forget about the whoosh effect!

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6 weeks no weight loss
Panic has set in. Need advice!
(Elli S) #11

Ah yes. I now remember hearing that piece of the podcast. Theoretically, that means that a “complete” reversal of obesity would take approximately 10 years, with fasting perhaps giving an edge to the process making it go somewhat faster. But that leaves a long time to coast through plateaus… Patience then is a key…
So, yes, low insulin is implicated in releasing fat from the cells, whereas reducing the amount of cells is dependent on autophagy of fat cells - which I assume is also somewhat dependent on low insulin, but might also have other factors involved. I’ll have to read up on that. Thanks.

#12

No sorry no change since last December, I am stalled but I am ok with it as long as I do not gain. I have been using Cronometer for a long time but rarely use it. I know what I should be eating and do not need to get confirmation from it. I like it because the version I have lists the micronutriets but again I usually do not use it

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

I wouldn’t think there is a difference. Fat cells release fatty acids in the absence of insulin, and I don’t think it matters whether they are full or not. Part of their job is to store fat during the day, to be metabolized while we fast during our nightly sleep, so fat is constantly moving in and out, unless we eat too much carbohydrate.

It appears that some people can add new fat cells, whereas others cannot. Professor Bikman speculates that the former constitute the metabolically healthy obese, whereas the latter are the people who become insulin-resistant and develop ectopic fat, because they can’t store enough in their adipose. The good news is that Prof. Bikman also says that under the right circumstances, white adipose tissue can behave more like brown adipose and actually metabolize fat. This is a good thing, since we lose almost all our brown adipose once we grow out of babyhood.