Need a little support


(The crazy German guy) #1

Been eating keto since Friday last week.
Trying to keep my macros in good fashion, but sometimes struggle with too much protein versus fat.
My goal is to consume around 95g of protein and 150g of fat.

Now, since two days I feel like crap. After breakfast (eggs & bacon) I’m really low on energy and it gets worse during the day. This evening I literally didn’t feel like taking the stairs anymore. I’ve got headaches, slight nausea from time to time.

Now, I’m aware about keto flu being a thing, but I’ve been in and out of ketosis a couple of times and this time it’s the absolute worst.
I try to eat salt, get vegetables with potassium, I take my magnesium pills and added bone broth since yesterday. Still…

While on holiday, I can’t even access a scale to see if I’m losing water weight… nor do I have ketostix with me to verify excess ketones being flushed out of my system… so I really have to listen to my body, which is crying for carbs…

Help :frowning:


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

How does that jibe with “Joined Jul 2, '18… began Keto: 06.2018”? What happened during the past year?


(The crazy German guy) #3

Lost 30 kilos. On & off keto, IF, OMAD. Recently ate carbs again while adding heavy weight lifting training in the last 10 weeks.
However I was never on clean keto. Always heavily protein oriented…
Now I want to do proper keto for the first time


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #4

The flu-like symptoms are a sign of inadequate salt intake. For various reasons, eating a lot of carbohydrate inhibits the excretion of sodium, and when we eat ketogenically, the kidneys return to excreting sodium at their normal, faster rate, meaning we might have to work a bit to get enough salt. Try to get 10-15 grams of table salt (sodium chloride) a day, inclusive of the salt already in your food, and you will be fine. Also, keeping salt in the right range helps the body keep its potassium, magnesium, and calcium properly regulated, as well.

Lethargy is more a consequence of switching from fueling your muscles with ketones rather than glucose. The skeletal muscles actually prefer to metabolise fatty acids (even over ketones), and this requires the necessary metabolic pathways to be reactivated. This adaptation process usually takes about two months (it’s highly variable from person to person), but your energy should begin returning in the week or so. You will know that you are fully fat-adapted when your energy is back up to your previous levels.

Your protein intake should be proportional to your lean mass. It should be neither excessive, nor so low as to cause muscle wasting. Fill in your caloric needs with fat. As long as your carbohydrate intake is low enough, your insulin will stay in a reasonable range, because fat has almost no effect whatsoever on insulin secretion, making it a safe source of energy.

If you eat to satisfy your hunger, there is no need to calculate macros; most people have a pretty good instinct for how much protein they need, and eating fat to satiety eliminates the need to calculate how much to eat. On a low-carbohydrate diet, your appetite becomes a reliable guide to the amount of food your body needs on any given day. If you have excess fat to get rid of, your appetite will set itself so that the excess fat can be burned off, along with the fat you eat.


Why do I have low days?
(The crazy German guy) #5

Thanks Paul!

I weigh 137kg and have around 86kg of lean body mass. Following general advice, I should eat around 140-160g of protein.
This, however, doesn’t leave me enough space to add fats to an extent which is recommended in the keto diet, or I will exceed my calories.

I aim to land at around 2,100-2,300 kcal to be in a meaningful deficit.

Regarding the salt:

Lifesum tells me (without around 2 liters of water) that today I had around 2,7g of sodium and 1 g of potassium.
As per your recommendation, I should have around 10-15g of sodium only, or is potassium part of that equation?


(Bob M) #6

Man, I’m a protein glutton. I weigh about 88 kg, and eat more protein than that – for LUNCH. That doesn’t include my second meal.

I would just eat real food and forget about how much protein and fat you’re getting. I tend to eat a lot of protein because of what I’m eating, which is lean beef, shrimp, and seafood. I do eat higher fat foods (this week, my lunch will be 4 eggs, 4-6 sausages, olives, and fresh salsa), and higher fat beef, too, but I do not freak out if I buy some top round sirloin (very lean) and eat over a pound of it at a sitting (160+ grams proteing) or have shrimp, mussels, and canned fish for lunch.

For instance, here’s one lunch, where I wrote down the protein ONLY from the meat:

The 1.1, 1.4, and 0.7 are ketones, the next row is ketonix, the next row is from a Free Style Libre glucose monitor, the next row are pinprick blood sugar results. This “lunch” was after 36 hours fasting.


(The crazy German guy) #7

I have no problem eating 150g of Protein for lunch and topping 300g per day. Did that in the past couple of weeks anyhow!
But how is that the „true“ ketogenic diet? I can’t add a lot of fat to that, or I’ll be gaining weight. Sure I’ll hit ketosis both ways.
In the past, this was my way of eating at some point. Borderline carnivore.

I go and lift weights around 3-5 times per week, so a little protein comes in handy.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #8

Forget the caloric deficit. Eat to satisfy your hunger, and as long as your carb intake is low enough, your appetite will be a reliable guide to how much food you need. Your appetite will adjust to allow your body to use both your dietary fat and your body fat. The problem with eating a caloric deficit is that you risk lowering your metabolic rate to compensate. Famine conditions will cause your body to conserve all its resources to get you safely through the famine. Satisfy your hunger, and your body will have all the energy it needs, will ramp up your metabolic rate, and will not hesitate to shed some of the excess fat.

What the eat-less-move-more folks leave out of their calculations is the body’s response to food. Excess carbohydrate gets stored as fat in the adipose tissue and wherever else the body can cram it in. A low-carbohydrate diet allows the fat trapped in the adipose and elsewhere to be metabolised. In a high-carb situation, protein spikes insulin, causing more fat storage; whereas in a low-carb situation, it has hardly any effect on insulin, leaving fat free to leave storage and be used. Dietary fat has a basically null effect on insulin, so it is a good source of calories, and as mentioned, the body adjusts your metabolism to match intake. If you want a fast metabolism, eat more fat. If you want to slow your metabolism down, eat a caloric deficit. Granted, if you eat far past the point where your hunger is satisfied, you will eventually gain weight—so eat to satiety and not beyond. On a low-carb diet, you can trust your appetite.


(Bob M) #9

If you’re lifting that much, the protein probably is going somewhere good.

A ketogenic diet is simply being in ketosis. I have eaten a ton of protein and still had blood ketones. Some people say that too much protein will kick you out of ketosis, but I think that is poppycock. I plan on trying a test of this, if I can ever get the time.

You can eat more fat, most likely, but whether you should eat more fat is a trickier question, as is the “proper” amount of protein. Most suggest “high” fat (since it’s called the low carb, HIGH fat diet), but I have found that I like higher protein in general.

If you are like me, and protein is filling, then there’s really no reason to not eat protein. I personally find protein to be more filling than fat.

As long as carbs are low and you’re not that hungry, I say eat what you want.


(The crazy German guy) #10

Couldn’t agree more! I Love Protein and an one of those guys who can’t down bacon for breakfast. I have been doing this way of eating with quite some success in the past, but have forever been thinking that I’m doing this keto thing wrong.


(Failed) #11

@steka

10 - 15 g of sodium CHLORIDE, which is about 4 g of actual sodium.

The recommended daily intake of potassium is 4.7 g https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Potassium-HealthProfessional/

From the above article:

Mild hypokalemia is characterized by constipation, fatigue, muscle weakness, and malaise [3]. Moderate to severe hypokalemia (serum potassium level less than about 2.5 mmol/L) can cause polyuria (large volume of dilute urine); encephalopathy in patients with kidney disease; glucose intolerance; muscular paralysis; poor respiration; and cardiac arrhythmias, especially in individuals with underlying heart disease [1,3,7]. Severe hypokalemia can be life threatening because of its effects on muscle contraction and, hence, cardiac function [5].


(Eric - The patient needs to be patient!) #12

Also if you want to lose weight then et less fat. The body will burn some of it’s own fat and make up the deficit.

This chart illustrates that:

This blog post it is from is useful:


(The crazy German guy) #13

Wow… as always this place is where I get great support! Took around 4g of salt with my eggs this morning. Don’t know if it is because of that, but I’m feeling much better. No headache until now. Had 1,5 litres of water so far, excluding coffee. Still, half of the day to go


(Marianne) #14

Did you also eat a good lunch and dinner? If not, I would - at least until your body acclimates a little to your new way of eating. You don’t want to be hungry.

People here are divided about the scale. For me, I detest it and am only weighed when I go to the doctor’s office - 3-4 times/year. I also don’t measure ketones or glucose levels. If you are following the keto guidelines and eating less than 20 g carbs/day, you will reach ketosis and your insulin should not spike too much to be of concern. As far as carb cravings, I found that eating three good sized meals a day when starting this helped me avoid any hunger and stave off carb cravings.

Good luck; please try to hang in there.


(bulkbiker) #15

So minimise carbs and eat real food… no need to complicate things…