My last carnivore meal


#21

Allie, I don’t disagree with you. I must admit the reason for the U-turn is I’ve promised my mom to have my lipids tested in 6 months from now and given what I now know about the effects of carnivore upon cholesterol (my love of the WOE set aside) I do not want my GP to then have a reason to recommend heart medication (my mom will probably accept heart medication in order to reduce her cholesterol as she is thoroughly spooked, and believes she may require heart surgery in the future if she can’t bring down her cholesterol).

But already if I’m honest having reinstated a few vegetables, I’m having a flare up of joint aches. Haven’t had them in ages. It’s b … frustrating.


(Allie) #22

You need to do what works best for you, not anyone else. No one else has to walk around in your body with your aches and pains.


#23

I agree. So it seems for me it’s a choice between (1) continuing the WOE (carnivore) I love and continute to worry about cholesterol and (2) Reinstating vegetables and having those godawful joint aches. I felt really good on carnivore, and if my mom hadn’t dumped this bomb on me, I would have happily continued with it, and yet I understand her reasons for doing it and her concerns. Note, I only reinstated the vegetables 2 days ago, and this morning my hip froze slightly up on me. I remember when I had that happen a lot, but it hasn’t happened in ages. I’m also experiencing more tenderness in the lipoedema areas. So I’m feeling thoroughly frustrated.


#24

Why do you need vegetables to keep your cholesterol low? Can’t you have a woe where you can avoid joint pain but is promising not to make your cholesterol situation worse including your worry?

Is it “vegs are needed outside of carnivore”, maybe? Or they have some other role?


#25

Personally, I wouldn’t make a change.

You’ve found that carnivore gives you some immediate benefits which have improved your life.

You don’t know, at the moment, that there’s even cause for concern with your cholesterol readings.

There’s no point running tests now, or even in 6 months - you need to give this way of eating chance to settle. Results at this point will just show a transition period, which isn’t representative of either way of eating.

Give it 12 months, and then if you’re still concerned, think about having the tests done then.

There’s no saying that you will 100% inherit the problem your mum is experiencing - even when things have an hereditary element, there’s no guarantee. And frankly, she’s been eating a different way for all of this time, and she’s got this problem - so that’s anecdotal evidence that her solution might not be correct.

Finally, as anyone on here will warn you, you have to really choose your audience when it comes to sharing information about the way you eat - purely because keto and its variants have been long demonised in the press, and there’s lots written here about why Big Food and Big Pharma want to see keto et al derided.

I’m sure your mum loves you and her reaction is from a place of concern, but it sounds to me as if you’ve carefully researched this way of eating. In contrast, the people you tell will just have the knee-jerk reaction of thinking that it can’t be good for you because of what they’ve read in the press over the years, and when they express their fears to you, it causes you to doubt yourself.


#26

Hi Septimius, thank you for your reply and input. I realise in retrospect I shouldn’t have shared my WOE with my mom, she believes everything written in the press. So does my MIL. I certainly regret being that open with her about doing carnivore now.
What I can’t afford is going back to where I was, with the joint aches I used to have, my hip freezing, causing mobility problems. That would make me a fool.
The thing is my mom’s coming for a visit in the summer (she lives in Norway, my birthplace, I live in the UK) and she’ll be vocal I know about my WOE as that’s how she is. I wanted to try and see it from her point of view. But I’ve also done a lot of research regarding cholesterol, and sent her studies which she hasn’t read due to not really getting studies in general, she follows the press (which usually omits referring to studies), and it now seems to me too low cholesterol is also a problem, and that the doctors’ reccommended levels might be too low. That’s yet another thing to research.

But one thing you point out is true. My mom has been on a very high carb (with a lot of vegetable oils, refined carbohydrates and sugar), virtually no fat diet pretty much all her life. She’s shunned fat for years. And the research I’ve read about both cholesterol and inflammation does point to excessive carb consumption and sugar as a strong link. But that, of course, isn’t mentioned in the press, probably both due to Big Pharma and Big Food, not to mention the sugar companies.

I need to seriously think about this, and come to some sensible conclusion, meanwhile I am still doing more research.


#27

OUCH! I still can’t wrap my head around such things, who is such very naive?!
Believing a few eating myths because everyone says it, sad but understandable but there are limits and one should know that very popular beliefs aren’t always true either (but that is a higher level thinking I don’t expect from everyone)…

I would be vocal back :slight_smile: She clearly has no idea about your woe while you researched it and anyway, YOUR body feels the changes…
I totally understand you don’t want to worry her and it’s definitely not pleasant to argue a lot about it either but you should be your first priority. If you give your body a good woe (too bad it’s not always clear what our ideal one is) and you know you are right, it is a great step. People will disagree with you, it’s life…

It’s very good you research and see that you shouldn’t just accept things. Stay like this :slight_smile:

But HOW people are alive on a super low-fat diet? Fat is essential… It’s no secret, it’s an accepted fact… Not a lot is needed (if one can handle carbs well) but still some and more than a tiny amount…


#28

Hi Shinita, yes my body feels the changes. I’d forgotten what the joint aches I used to be plagued with were like, as I’ve just been feeling so good. Then, after 2 days of eating nuts and vegetables, I am stiff, I can feel the stiffness and joint pain in my ankles, in my wrists, my hip, still very very slight changes, nothing like how it was back on my HC/LF, but walking across the floor I can feel it.

This morning I shared my lipids numbers (from Oct 2022) with my mom to show her how they were all within normal range. But she’ll only argue that was before the switch to HF/LC. I’m also no longer sure at all that keeping your LDL cholesterol at the doctors’ low reccommended levels is actually healthy. And my mom will probably accept heart medication, to bring her current levels (Serum cholesterol 5.0 mmol/L) down. She believes there’ll be a heart procedure for her in store in the future if she doesn’t.

I think I’ll take a break from the forum and spend my time more (when I have the time that is) to do more research. It’s a sea of opposing views, conflicting results and loose threads, ever more questions being raised, etc.


#29

time changes chol. issues. plus one has to ‘really read’ and understand what chol. is and how it IS judged in our bodies…remember also a ‘carnivore’ is not a ‘other plant eater’ so our chol. numbers are diff. in our bodies for what they do ‘do’ ya know.

I would recommend a ton more research on chol. and carnivore if it truly is this bigger worry for you. We all can’t ever predict our future but unless one holds carnivore ALOT longer, like into easily a year or more for ‘real big chol. changes’ that happen and it takes that long for some easily, one can’t guesstimate their future and chol. issues on carnivore ya know. Also remember chol. numbers go UP for so many of us quickly on this lifestyle, til we hold it longer and things then go down :slight_smile: So you are kinda in that gray area of which way to go. I for one would live my daily 24 day life without aches and misery :slight_smile: we only the minute we are living kinda so I would take better quality of life and do more research about chol. and what us carnivores say on it and get more experiences from long term carnivores on it and then I would put time on the plan to ‘see changes’ that might be beneficial to you. Key being, we can plan and HOPE what we do today is perfect for our future but hey, we all know this action just ain’t happening all the time for us so…just some chat on it, stuff to think about :slight_smile:

Also if you join ZIOH or Zero Carb Health or Strict Carnivore on facebook you can chat with longer term carnivores and their chol. changes and their experiences. Some of them track this like crazy and have tons of info on their progression. So experienced people and this info could help…just a suggestion of course.


(Allie) #30

That’s your answer.

People will speak badly against anything they do not understand or agree with, trust your body.


#31

Thank you for all your valuable input and replies. I have decided to continue to eat like a carnivore despite concerns regarding cholesterol, and do more research on cholesterol and atherosclerosis, I will be taking a break from the forum, wishing you all well on your WOEs.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #32

These are great numbers, and your ratio of triglycerides to HDL is 0.52, which is excellent. You have very little to no cardiovascular risk, with a ratio like that. Not only that, but all your other cholesterol numbers are within the healthy range. Eating a carnivore diet is unlikely to change any of that. But I understand that you want to please your mother and will be backing away from carnivore. A diet that includes ketogenic levels of carbohydrate should certainly help preserve your good metabolic health.


(Robin) #33

Keep in mind your family history likely includes a history of eating a lot of junk and high carb foods. It’s like, my family was all smokers and had heart problems and died too young…. So, do I say there is heart disease in my history? I believe it was more like a Lifestyle Disease.


(Megan) #34

All my lipid test results have improved significantly on carnivore, just 4 months after starting. I’ve seen quite a lot of people saying the same. Is all the research you’ve been looking at done on (a) people eating carnivore and (b) people who have been eating carnivore for many months? Dietary fat plus carbs has a totally different effect to dietary fat and no, or next to no, carbs. Some people’s numbers don’t improve or “get worse”, and I don’t know if anyone fully understands why yet, and what “worse” actually means when on this woe. We’re a very under-studied population.

It’s completely up to you what you eat but I am having a reaction to what you are saying. Sounds like fear mongering to me. You have no idea what eating carnivore is doing to your lipids b/c you haven’t had them checked when eating this way, and you haven’t been eating this way for anywhere near long enough for blood tests to give you a somewhat accurate picture of how your body is responding.

So many diseases/health problems are starting to be viewed as lifestyle problems, with diet being a significant part of the problem. So, any clean eating is going to be a lot better for us than eating standard “modern” western foods. Good luck with whatever clean eating plan you finally settle on.


#35

Hi Megan, regarding carnivore, the press does the scare mongering, for me its simply more of an unknown, a bit of a mystery at the moment that I am trying to unearth. But I understand why you reacted to my statement, as I can see now it was worded wrong, and steeped in ignorance because of cause, I don’t know what effect carnivore would have on cholesterol as I haven’t yet come across sufficient data, so my statement should really have been the opposite.

I decided yesterday to continue eating like a carnivore, and to continue doing research on cholesterol at the same time. And what I’m more interested in at the time than the actual effect carnivore might have on cholesterol, is the notion that (1) Too low cholesterol could raise the risk of other illnesses coming into the field such as cancer, diabetes, dementia, as too low cholesterol could also decrease cognitive function, and I am very interested in the latter because I struggle with brain fog, mostly memory problems, (2) The notion that people with high LDL-C live as long or longer than those with low LDL-C. (3) I am learning more about the actual function of cholesterol. What I haven’t yet done is find substantial data regarding how cholesterol numbers change in those on a carnivore WOE, and what actual significance that has, how those numbers may differ from, as you write yourself, those on keto who include more carbs, and whether there is any issue with an elevation in LDL-cholesterol or if it could actually be beneficial and protective even.

So it seems to me there’s a lot more to it than the medical profession highlights.

Would you mind sharing your numbers with me Megan, if you happen to have them to hand?


#36

As 4 months have passed since you had your tests would it not be better to get them done again now to see what if any change there is before you change things about? If you repeat them in 6 months having changed your WOE that proves nothing to anybody.
Your numbers all look ok to me.
You also don’t necessarily have high cholesterol running in your family - maybe your mother and grandmother both just ate the wrong things which has led to their arteries clogging.(which may or may not have anything to do with cholesterol)

My husbands cholesterol numbers are
serum cholesterol 6.5mmol/L
Serum tryglicerides 0.76
Serum HDL 2.42
Se non HDL 4.1
and calculated LDL 3.8

Although his doctor mentioned a statin in passing (he’s paid to do that) he was fine with everything.

You do you but I’m not sure why you would want to go back to aches and pains to suit your mother.

Good luck in whatever you choose in the minefield of nutrition and keep us updated.


#37

Hi Amanda, thank you for sharing your husband’s cholesterol numbers with me. As I wrote in my reply to Megan I already decided yesterday to continue my carnivore WOE. If anything would have convinced me of that it was the flare up of inflammation, joint pain from just two days of eating a few nuts and vegetables.

I am currently trying to find out as much about both cholesterol and atherosclerosis, I can. It isn’t just for me, but for my mom who is really concerned about her high cholesterol, as well as the calcification of an artery in her heart. I have told her that is much better then the soft plaque which must have been there before. I also pointed out to her why that sign of healing (calcification) may have come about. A while ago she listened to me regarding IF, and this seems to have corrected an issue she had with her colon that she had previously been offered a surgery to improve the condition of. But she told me in her last email (she lives in Norway, I live in England) that the IF she has been doing seems to have taken care of that. I then pointed out to her that the calcification in her heart might be due also to IF, and her body having initiated a healing process. Well, I’m being optimistic.

My mom has begun to listen to me more, to all the information I’ve been sending her over the last week, and finally backed off of my carnivore WOE. But I am now researching cholesterol for both of us, and whether the medical professions’ idea of cholesterol is wrong. Because my mom believes if she can’t bring her cholesterol down she’ll be needing heart surgery in the future. And she can’t understand why it’s so high. I had to point out to her she’s been eating a high carbohydrate WOE with a lot of sugary foods for years, but still she says she’s not yet ready to give up sugar. People become both emotionally attached to their WOEs, but also emotionally attached to food in general. It doesn’t help then, when Big Pharma and Big Food combine strengths to ensure people that so long as they take their prescribed medications, a diet high in carbs and sugar won’t negatively impact their conditions.

As to having my lipids tested, I have decided to wait 6 months to a year for that, if I feel otherwise fine.


(Allie) #38

Tends to help when people can accept that these business are only interested in repeat customers, and as such actually helping people to get better is very much against their best interests.


#39

Well yes Allie, there’s no money in people becoming healthier. But, considering how both my mum and MIL, they’re both the loveliest of people, really generous in spirit, believe everything written in the press, and they’re not alone, it’s a problem that won’t be going away anytime soon. Perhaps the next generation will grow up a bit wiser, a bit more aware and a bit more cautious (able to question the myriad misconceptions posed as truths in the press).


#40

Hi Robin, it may very well have to do more with lifestyle. My mom can’t fathom why her cholesterol is high, and is completely baffled by this calcification of the artery in her heart, but I had to point out to her she has been eating a diet too high in carbohydrates and sugar for many years. I did also point out that, because she listened to me regarding IF and she has being seeing benefits from this (she was waiting for a surgery to improve the condition of her colon, but says she no longer requires this, that IF has fixed the problem) it may be the calcification (a sign of healing) is a result of her doing IF, and that the soft plaque which was there before was a result of too many carbohydrates and too much sugar. But still she says she’s not yet ready to give up sugar. She has, however, backed off of my carnivore WOE. I am researching cholesterol both for myself and her, to see if I can find any information to alleviate her fears regarding her own cholesterol, and atherosclerosis.