My last carnivore meal


#1

I have enjoyed the carnivore WOE immensely. I even call the foods on this WOE devilishly good. And if I believed I could get away with it, I certainly would continue it. But, having now discovered high cholesterol runs in my family, I have spent the last few days pouring over information regarding cholesterol and its effect upon the heart. I do find these days I’m a bit short on breath, which may or may not have anything to do with cholesterol and the carnivore WOE but I need to address why it’s happening, that I feel I need to pause sometimes and breathe deeply. So my plan now is to add back in keto friendly vegetables, nuts, and eat much more fish and seafood so the omega 6/omega 3 ratio improves, and cook with olive oil. To see if this improves my shortness of breath. And then, following this, 6 months down the road, have my GP run a test to check my lipids. I don’t believe in becoming attached to a WOE, it’s whatever is the right thing to do at any given time, what feels right for us, because only we can feel our own bodies.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #2

If you need to improve your ratio of ω-3 to ω-6, it helps greatly to avoid vegetable oils. Most of them contain so much ω-6 that it’s a problem to keep intake down to a reasonable level. Ω-6 fats are essential, but we need only a small quantity.


(Joey) #3

I’m a bit confused… can you please help me track why you are connecting your current eating pattern with shortness of breath? The basis for this connection - especially over such a short period of time - is lost on me.


#4

Hi Paul, I haven’t been using vegetable oils, only butter. I though olive oil though was OK? And to add in more fish, as I’ve mostly been eating meat would surely help as well?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #5

Olive oil is better than the industrial seed oils, for many reasons, but it still contains a fair amount of ω-6. However, Dr. Phinney likes olive oil, and it was one of his lectures that introduced me to the idea that too much ω-6 can be inflammatory. I’d say you don’t have too much to worry about.


#6

Hi Joey, I’ve had the slight shortness of breath for a while, but as I had breast cancer, went through chemotherapy and radiotherapy and have been on Tamoxifen for two years I thought it was probably any of the reasons above. But when my mom told me her cholesterol was high and that it’s hereditary, that her mother also had high cholesterol, and expressed her great concerns regarding my carnivore WOE I felt I owed it to myself and my family, my SO and most of all our children, to start reading up on the matter of cholesterol and atherosclerosis, to see if there could be a link, or if that belief (common in the medical society) is unfounded.

Of course, I waded a sea of opposing beliefs, Dave Feldman’s cautiously optimistic one, and some very negative views. And it seems to me though I could be wrong (and would loved to be proven so) that LDL can be kept more in control on keto as opposed to carnivore. I read one particular view which Dave Feldman let Dr. Nadolsky post on the cholesterol code, to let people know of an opposing view to Dave’s cautiously optimistic one, and I’m not saying Dr. Nadolsky is right or that I agree, but it was certainly food for thought. Dr. Nadolsky does approve of LC/HF, but he believes the fats should be more from polyunsaturated sources and foods rich in DHA, as according to him, those foods do not affect LDL-cholesterol negatively. I’ve also read other articles presenting much the same viewpoint. I did read Dave Feldman’s view of cholesterol, and I understand the uncertainty is in whether the elevated LDL-cholesterol could lead further down the road to atherosclerosis - it seems a huge unknown at the moment.

The slight shortness of breath did also seem to become more noticeable when I fully switched to carnivore, but I kept on ignoring it because I love the Carnivore WOE, and as I wrote in my original post, if I was certain I could get away with it regarding my LDL-cholesterol, I would have continued with it.


(Joey) #7

Thank you kindly for the additional details about your current health situation and family history. There are many viewpoints on ideal nutrition and the thing that makes it especially hard to parse is that - as much as we’re individuals with our unique genetics/epigenetics - our needs and reactions to the same inputs clearly change over the trajectory of our own lives.

The connection between carnivore eating and shortness of breath is still totally lost on me. Unless you’re having an allergic reaction to some food substance (even aggravating asthma?) I’ve never heard of shortness of breath from eating something.

Whether LDL contributes to atherosclerosis is worthy of debate given the history of poor science and politics in the USA/Western world. But LDL creating shortness of breath is a link I can’t make sense of personally.

:vulcan_salute:


#8

Hi Joey, it is possible the slight shortness of breath is a side effect of my Tamoxifen. I don’t think it’s asthma, but it’s kind of like a need for more air at times, for pulling more air into my lungs, for taking deeper breaths. And it could be entirely coincidental that it seemed more noticable after switching to carnivore foods, as the way Tamoxifen work, new side effects can come about. If I still have this feeling of slight shortness of breath, after switching to keto, I will know it’s nothing to do with carnivore. But because of my limited understanding, I suppose I began to connect the slight shortness of breath to the possibility of elevated LDL and also atherosclerosis, as I just don’t know enough about this, I haven’t got the correct understanding of this science. And I will continue to try and achieve a better grasp of it. But I will also now try a few weeks of keto and see how my body reacts.


(Joey) #9

Makes sense as an approach.

The tendency for us to conflate “causation” with “correlation” (mere association) is almost impossible to resist for us as humans.

We use this basic tendency to train dogs, rats, and ourselves. :slight_smile: Science comes into play as we try to untangle the two and keep them separate.


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #10

Start from first principles: First, how do you know your LDL is elevated and that your atherosclerosis is worse than it was before you started the carnivore diet?

If neither of those is worse, then you’ll need to look elsewhere for the cause of the shortness of breath.
For example, about 25 years ago, I was diagnosed with asthma, and after a month or two of treatment I was amazed to find that my shortness of breath (which I had attributed to growing older, ha!) had completely disappeared. It was the asthma at work, even though I wasn’t having an acute attack. Over the years I have been able to stop the asthma drugs and be fine for a while, but when the shortness of breath returns, it always helps to return to the asthma drugs.


(Megan) #11

Hi @never2late, when did you have labs done and what are they saying?


(Joey) #12

@PaulL Just curious as to whether you had any food-related allergies that brought on an asthmatic attack? Any connections with food and shortness of breath since?


(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #13

No, my allergies are all to airborne allergens. No food allergies that I’m aware of, and no symptoms that are otherwise unexplained.

That said, my allergies are lessened when my carb intake is low and my systemic inflammation is gone.


(Joey) #14

Makes sense. Inflammation, besides healing from a wound, is the root of so much of our suffering :face_with_thermometer:


#15

Hi Megan, I had my bloods done 12 Oct 2022, the same day I decided to switch from HC/LF to HF/LC (Keto).

My cholesterol results were back then:

Serum cholesterol: 3.59 mmol/L
Serum triglycerides 0.93 mmol/L
Serum HDL cholesterol level 1.8 mmol/L
Serum LDL cholesterol 1.37 mmol/L
Se non HDL cholesterol level 1.79 mmol/L
Serum cholesterol/HDL ratio 2

Note my cholesterol levels were taken when I was still on a HC/LF WOE. My doctor noted at the time that the recommended level for Serum cholesterol is 4.0 mmol/L or less for those at high risk. And that the recommended level for Serum LDL cholesterol is 2.0 mmol/L or less for those at high risk.

My mom just a few days ago told me high cholesterol runs in the family because her mother had it, and my mom’s result on Serum cholesterol was 5.0 mmol/L. I suspect it was me sharing my carnivore WOE with her with food pics that led to this revelation, as well as her discovering the calcification of an artery in her heart recently.

So, my plan forward after having poured over a lot of information now regarding cholesterol on a HF/LC WOE, is to replace at least half of the saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats, add more foods rich in DHA (fish and other seafood), and add back in nuts (almonds, walnuts), green vegetables (cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, green beans) as well as some other keto friendly vegetables, and limited fruits (berries, avocado, sweet cherry tomatoes, bellbpeppers and cucumber, etc) and some seeds (pumpkin and flax) which is how I ate at the start of keto. And I’ll be doing this for a few weeks now to see how my body reacts.

My plan is then, in 6 months from now to have my Serum lipids tested again.


#16

Hi Paul, I don’t. As my Serum lipids were tested 12 Oct 2022, the same day I started Keto. And they were within normal range then. I do have those numbers on a sheet to hand still to look at. But I have not had my Serum lipids checked since then. And now my plan is, instead of freaking my mom out further and give my doctor a reason to recommend me statins, to go back to my original WOE which was keto, and replace half of the saturated fats with polyunsaturated, increase the foods rich in DHA, add back in the foods I ate at the start of my WOE, and then have my Serum lipids tested 6 months from now. I will happily share my cholesterol results with all.

As to asthma, I still don’t think it’s that, because my breath control when I sing (I used to be in a band as the lead vocalist and I’ve always loved singing) is better than it was, and I also feel better when I’m walking my brisk walks, I don’t go out of breath, but I just feel, for whatever reason, when I’m sedentary I need to take deeper breaths now. It’s odd.


(Allie) #17

Another kneejerk change to your WOE… can’t ever find what works with constant changes.


#18

Hi Allie, you may call it a kneejerk reaction. I call it a sensible approach, in the light of learning (1) there is a family history of high cholesterol (which I wasn’t aware off before), my mom’s (equally as recent) discovery of calcification of an artery in her heart, and my mom’s concern regarding her Serum cholesterol which is 5.0 mmol/L. (2) Having then spent the last few days pouring over all the information I’ve been able to find regarding cholesterol whether it leads to atherosclerosis, reading both optimistic views and highly negative, to exhaustion. (3) Examining why I switched to carnivore in the first place, and the reasons weren’t substantial enough being, love of the food, love of the simplicity, less cooking in the kitchen, and a ridiculous infatuation with cream. I do not believe in becoming emotionally attached to a WOE, but I do believe in the clear benefits (lack of inflammation, normalisation of metabolic health) of HF/LC, but the question is more for me the type of fats, and whether keto as opposed to carnivore ensures better control of LDL cholesterol.


(Allie) #19

But it’s just another thing that you’re trying, getting partway through, then changing without even knowing if it’s working or even having an effect. You aren’t ever going to find what works as you are constantly changing things.


#20

I held myself back but yep, I had this inner reaction too. Changing your woe every 2 weeks or something, it’s a bit too often to see much about the benefits or problems of the new woe… But I understand you are afraid carnivore harms you so continuing would cause mental health damage and that’s definitely bad. (As the physical things, I have no idea, of course. Not even in general but for your individual body with family history…? I just wish you luck to figure out what works.)