Fat first is supposed to cut you back on appetite you only eat it til you dont want fat
any more then eat leaner meat or meat and your sponge cakes…you shouldn’t force in food if your not hungry… next day eat your normal style of eating if your trying to build muscle.
Yes your calories should be lower but your not hungry is the aim and then your body won’t think your starving and so won’t drop back your metabolism
Last night I was not hungry. That’s a hunger signal of a type. My breakfast had been 3 rashers middle bacon and 3 pasture fed large chicken eggs at just after 12 noon. That rib eye had defrosted. I left I in the fridge. At 12 noon today I baked the steak with a single bacon rasher wrap. NoFUN (No Food Until Noon) Breakfast. I have had two morning coffees while working online, and they are 3 hours apart.
I weighed in at the doctors yesterday. I have had a 0.6kg weight drop in 3 months, that’s about a pound. I explained I have reduced my abdominal circumference measure by 8cm over the same time. He said, “But Frank is that a truly objective measure? The scales say different. The scales are the objective measure.” And he recorded my weight. I asked, “Tom, does your GP software have an input for abdominal measure?” He said, “It only has body weight and height (to calculate BMI).” So that was clear. But we agree my health will be improved by losing more body fat. We both know I am healthier than I was in January and healthier still than when I got ill in August 2021.
He asked if I wanted a referral to a dietitian. I laughed. I laughed in his face. It’s good medicine.I declined as I have found a low carb friendly nutrition coach who speaks my language.
But Tom is my GP, and living in a country town, it’s not done to fire your GP over differences of opinion. I need him to write scripts and order tests. He got me thinking and questioning my approach.
That brings us back to NoFUN, and the power of restricted feeding. I know it is not the standard ZC way to ‘restrict’. But I’m looking at it as ensuring there is adequacy in the food intake as a guide. This has given me a task to attempt before a recheck at the start of June.
I did rib-eye mathematics. It’s based on protein intake. If beef has about 25g of protein per 100g, 26g/100g to be more accurate, of meat, and I need 100g of protein per day (drawing on my keto knowledge). That gives me an OMAD goal of 400g - 500g of marbled steak, about a pound of beef. The rib-eyes I get are about 800g. So as a guide I can eat 1 rib-eye every 2 days. Mixed in that plan are baked beef ribs two nights a week. So, the steak window is over 5 days. I’m interested to see if I can eat a rib-eye on a Sunday, Tuesday and Wednesday lunchtime. Or, variations on that feeding/fasting base. Then eat beef ribs on Thursday and Friday nights, and not be hungry.
Eggs, bacon, mackerel and salmon as back up. Added salt. Monitoring blood glucose and blood ketones.
I joined a carnivore group today run by Dr Chaffee and so I’m going to try his approach which is super strict I’ve been slacking too much and keto foods slipping in here and there so this is strict but it’s worth cleaning up things again. His plan is meat and water no dairy at least to begin with and even when allowed its tiny and rarely…
Sorry guys but “fat first” is my new toy and had too many thoughts. I keep trying to be scarce and shortish even if I fail epically. But it will happen eventually. This comment is all about fat first and whatever was related and came to mind.
I think I will do it in my own way. I overdid the fat first thing yesterday and I never felt less pull towards fat (but I am full again, hunger always changes things :D), today I go with 2 fried egg yolks and a tiny piece of pork yowl.
That’s what I don’t understand in these “something first” things. I chose the meat because it has the perfect fat/meat ratio. Even if I cut up my meat, I eat the leanest parts with fattier parts… I am quite sensitive to the fat content though I have some wriggle room. I actually often can handle the fattiest pieces alone, I just don’t want the face the lean ones later as they aren’t so good… Better if I have some super fatty stuff to eat with those like pork jowl but even sausage helps with its modest, barely above 80% fat content (in calories).
But yes, I can eat some fattier bites first when I can handle the leaner ones.
I just thought about separating the fatty start from my meat as if I start to eat meat, that will be lots of protein… But maybe we don’t need to wait any between the 2 phase? (Still, I can’t not eat the leaner parts with the fattier ones. That’s instinct, taste…)
I plan to try that when I have no better ideas (or pork jowl). I can eat a tiny butter. But not much so it will be hardly enough alone.
I wonder if the carbs in sour cream are a problem, possibly… Though it worked yesterday, I only had a bite.
Yolks have much protein but still quite fatty, experiments are needed.
Oh and yesterday I had yolks and fat in an egg milk in the beginning (yuck. I don’t want to put pork roast dropping into my egg milk in the future. the ingredients were both tasty and it could have worked but it didn’t) and my energy intake still plummeted. Drinking calories usually have the opposite effect on me, not like I can surely tell.
Of course my pork jowl is a known very satiating item for me (but it’s super easy to eat so I can boost my calories with it if I eat it without limits) so it easily could overpower anything weak thing drinking calories may do…
So today I experiment again! Carefully. I really don’t want to repeat my yesterday, I needed efforts to eat anywhere close to half a pound of meat… And I didn’t eat much of my other protein sources either but I am glad I had leaner ones. Fatty meat wasn’t desirable after my fatty start. I picked the leanest parts (something I normally rarely do) and it still wasn’t easy and I had to stop soon.
I tracked my meat consumption for May this far. 552g, 508g, 197g. And I was looking forward to my fried pork chuck before I shocked my body with the fat… Because meat boredom or an unusually huge interest towards eggs and cheese, even eating off may cause such a modest meat consumption (or if I run out of it) but when I have perfectly nice and originally desirable meat, I always eat more. I expected to eat up all my pork chuck, bringing me to the usual just above a pound meat consumption I have these days.
So yesterday was slightly surprising.
But it keeps me satiated still despite being low-cal. Fat almost alone is mysterious but I ate some protein later and still. Wow. I only could handle lowish-protein days with way more fat before.
This is very exciting, I will experiment for some more days, at least.
(And if I can’t stomach fat first, I will do fat last. I used pork jowl as last bite when I couldn’t get satiated and already ate a proper meal before. I am so controlled now, I can eat only one slice…
And I am curious about lean first. Actually, leaner in general. Can it satiate me eventually with a modest amount of fat? I typically start to eat fat in the middle so never figured it out. I remember the day when I just focused on getting a quite high protein intake. I went over 200g protein and way over 200g fat in the end. So I must focus on fat too.)
No I wasn’t sad, especially not that I FINALLY ate little! I need to eat little to lose fat, I know that, I just never can eat little under normal circumstances.
I felt slightly UNWELL. I wasn’t sad but it was bad and I don’t accept that.
Eating this low is dangerous, my body can count calories and makes steps. And I eat a ton after midnight. Though I never do that lately. I ate late here and there (not since I do my proper carnivore-ish) but it was just an egg and a bite of meat or something similar. So while I love the idea of eating little, I am not always sure I can get away with it and that may worry me a bit. But it seems it worked. Still would be better to eat in a tiny deficit every day… Or doing longer fasts. 1200 kcal days are so abnormal in my world.
I am a tad paranoid about protein. I dislike when it’s so low. Yeah, 73g, it’s not THAT super low, it’s probably not very much below 1.5g/kg for LBM for me… And it’s a single day. So it should be fine? Nope, it’s super low. I get hungry this low. I get hungry anywhere below 120g… And I didn’t eat meat just a few bites. Barely touched eggs. Nope, it’s super unusual. I am used to 120-220g protein. But I only got 73g because I low-key forced it. So this fat first thing as strongly as I did yesterday despite not desiring fatty things, is a failure. Not a real failure, it’s a useful experiment I won’t repeat if possible.
I am a hedonist. I MUST enjoy my meat. Basic. And I didn’t. Stupid too much fat first… But I learned from it. And ate little. And I am satiated. That’s cool. And now I miss food joy as I had so little yesterday.
OMG. I won’t. Of course, each to their own.
11g pork jowl and 2 egg yolks fried in 5g fat should be enough for me.
No way I could do that. I eat fat, it’s nice first, then it puts me off while I am still hungry. I suppose. (And then my body turns off hunger to avoid getting more yucky food - as if I would do that to me - but I still feel I need fuel.)
Never forced the fat thing (I didn’t force the fat yesterday, I lowkey forced the protein afterwards) and yestrerday I had scrambled eggs with sausage in my “fat first” part… I need protein for satiation, never ever could get satiated without a bunch of it. I think. Some fruits are tricky and can satiate me… While most made me super hungry… And I had fat as a snack before… Once. If I desire fat alone, it’s okay but if I don’t… I don’t feel the pull to eat fat since early carnivore…? Probably have times like that but usually not.
Okay, enough thinking about it, I will experiment subtly and see what happens.
Another benefit of yesterday that I could get away without getting out some meat from the freezer… My 3 pound meat lasted for 4 days and Alvaro ate some too (about 2 oz but he had carbs, protein-rich carbs and a carby/fatty dessert for the same meal. and he eats 3 times while I eat once). I ate other meat items but only processed stuff. And I kinda had enough of processed meat now especially that they are so fatty… I desire very lean things now. My poor fried pork chuck I was looking forward to. One day my headache is killing me, the other day I dislike fat… ME. Who regularly go over 200g fat, occasionally over 300 and never consider it much, I had a 265g fat day where I still missed fat (but I usually ate way below 200g and I felt it a bit restrictive and sad. missing fat is part of my life but carnivore helped a lot, I still need to be careful with my fat intake, all the old, rusty brakes are in - rusty as they are ancient, they didn’t lose their strength - but I get satiated and I can afford really fatty food on OMAD too).
I started to like leaner items lately though. They too. I still love very fatty meat. Not today but almost always. I love the taste of pork jowl even now, I just don’t desire it due to its fattiness (the 86% in weight, I am still not sure I can believe it, it’s cooked and nice. but possible as it’s almost simply fat tissue. but the tiny meat makes a big difference for me. and it’s nicely cooked, that too. I couldn’t eat raw fat tissue alone and people do it all the time here. well not alone with bread but doesn’t matter, not with meat. or at least eggs. pork fat tissue with eggs is edible though I miss my meat there too).
It never can happen in my life, I think I wrote about the balance I have. I tracked so much and I almost always was around 65%. If I really try, I can change it for a few days at most. Except when I just change, it happens. Now I like leaner things and even something close to 50% isn’t impossible on certain days (while I very rarely could do it on high-carb… 50% fat is extremely low for me). But if I drop my calories, it’s even easier. And if I eat leaner meat as my staple, that inevitably have some effect on my fat percentage though I automatically start to add fat, still, a big amount of meat can’t be balanced out easily. But these aren’t huge changes normally.
Fat percentage is interesting, I don’t care about that (directly. I do care about my calorie intake and protein), happens what happens. Everything seems to work that isn’t forced. And that’s good as I need higher fat when I need more food.
But people surely may have fattier and leaner times. My leaner times are around 60% and the fattier around 70 (less and more are possible but never for long) but many people have a bigger range I am quite certain.
Maybe my problem is that my fat didn’t appeal to me… I just was borderline able to swallow it (and then it was tasty, yes, pork jowl is awesome. the egg milk wasn’t).
I eat my chosen fat (with protein) first then I eat my (fatty) protein, I try this now, we will see if that is enough. I just can’t separate fat and protein, it’s insane… Some years before I almost only touched food with 65-70% fat… Eating 80% is already subtly challenging, 90% is more and 100% is won’t happen (beyond 5g butter).
BUT after yesterday I just feel there is a method that works for me well. That’s why I can’t give this idea up. I just need to find what exactly to do. I show ways to my body and then I only eat food I really desire.
Okay, it was still somewhat informative about the camel fat Interesting.
This is not how many people’s bodies work… It may be great for many, sure but I wouldn’t say such things in general.
Especially losing weight quickly where muscle gain has a noiticeable effect at balancing it out… Nope. No one gains muscle really quickly. Losing fat can be waaaaay quicker and that’s for perfect muscle gain for a young not muscular man with good genetics (but without steroids). Even I lost fat quicker than that and I lost quite slowly.
Now I am mildly curious about not liking the nice meat when satiated but liking it when hungry. I wonder how many people work like that… I am very different and all people who can overeat meat must be different too. Or everyone who can get really bored of it.
But I will focus on my feelings and opinions next time! Some changes surely happen, even the taste itself may dim a bit… But if it’s a very tasty meat, it’s still very tasty and may be even super tempting even when I already ate too much… I could do that on carnivore too already but it’s harder there, indeed. But it wasn’t long term carnivore, maybe this is for that? (I still think I often would feel it very tasty, just wouldn’t want it. But main thing we should stop to eat so either way is fine.)
What was the situation in this case that this strict approach was advised?
And I keep almost forgetting some carnivores think sweeteners are okay (but always meet it again)… It’s instinctively out for me just like all sugars. So I don’t even need to know honey originates from plants, it’s almost pure sugar so can’t be right for carnivore. Sweeteners seem better but they are sweet and may be a big and varied can of worms.
I stop reading back now, sorry. Can’t get out my wifi as I need the internet now but try to avoid the forum.
That’s how Dr Chaffee does his carnivore with his patients he doesn’t like plants at all because they stop weightloss that includes tea and coffee and cause other issues he doesn’t like dairy except for butter and gee
…well, I did explain that I am transitioning off medication that messes with my hunger signalling and that this might not be a normal state of affairs.
When you talk about 65% fat/protein ratio, my issue is that I felt a lot better moving my ratio up from 70% to 80%. Other people feel better the other way around. It’s entirely up to you and your body.
There’s been some great anecdotes of experience here, but maybe if you want to know more about the ‘why it works’, you’d find it more informative coming from key people in carnivore communities - like The Bear’s writings, or Amber’s content, or someone like Ken Berry (who repeatedly says eating more fat is better in his experience for fat loss).
What I’m reading from Chaffee is he likes that ratio too because we need fat and not only for energy but it’s essential for our hormones so im happy to try his "fatty meat salt and water "can’t hurt give it a full 30 day min
busy busy again but reading the posts and good thread chat!!!
zc going super well for me.
but at @FrankoBear one thing I can say at least you ‘can chat up your Dr’ in good form ya know. that is great cause alot of them say my way or the highway kinda thinking, at least you get real interaction LOL
remember too the ‘old saying’ that gut sizes should be xyz for men and women and OH SO many put that on their life…a gal should not be over 34" I think if I remember, so that again never speaks of bmi and weight actually so…your losing that 8 cm is KEY to it all…the body fat loses come more with time in that our eating changes truly longer we go and we heal more and ‘we change’ point blank so keep on trucking!! best part of the whole thing, we get to eat and be satisfied vs. old starving useless diets, so if it takes longer to hit goals but this WOE suits you so well showing results, hmmm, I say longer and slower for long term sustainability and health.
OK-----I just got stuff to handle now as usual.
luckily Mom’s house sold very fast, no realtor, hell they were lining up for this lakefront home and we got a fab price and now I have to really get it cleaned out and have other issues to handle.
but my zc is perfect.
with hotter weather I am not as hungry.
yesterday was 12 oz NY Strip steak, later was 1 pork chop and can of tuna/mayo. Thick on mayo, cause I WANTED MAYO! and now I don’t want any more mayo any time soon HA
on plan and doing wonderful. starting to get that even leaner thin feeling I just love. Empty feeling but energized empty! Always just loved being in that spot in my day!!
Hi guys, I’m still here. Still Carni. This is an interesting conversation. I do no outside reading/research about this topic. It is just where I landed as keto helped me identify foods that hurt my body.
I never used to eat the fat, never thought of it. Grew up learning to cut it off and toss it. Now, it is the yummiest part of the meal. But I do realize there is science behind it and that’s cool. Glad you’re here to share.
It’s really interesting to hear your perspective. I’ve also arrived at this point simply based on what does and does not agree with my body. Meat works, carbs don’t, green leafy veg on a very rare occasion is OK. Other than being a little mundane at times, I’m perfectly happy just reading my body.
Good morning! Great reading here today. @Fangs Congrats on the sale of the house! Good now to finish it up and get on with your life. I had a small chicken salad from a breast of that cornish hen while hubby ate lunch yesterday. Sometimes mayo just hits the spot!
@Azi Love all the Chaffee quotes. I did notice early on how food changes flavor when I’m satiated. It’s a great signal!
I do better I think, eating 2-3 small meals instead of loading up the digestive tract all at once, unless that were small and a modified fast came out of that day.
I also loved reading Chaffee’s explanation of the gallbladder and where gallstones come from. I’ve long suspected they originated from carbs.
My 10:30 meal was a few slim slices of beef tenderloin enjoyed cold. I can’t claim all of it as Mimsy sat at my feet and shared a little with me!
After my meeting, around 1:30, my ex and his gf will be visiting for half an hour. I’ll make them cappuccinos and since they’re vegetarian we went out and bought a couple vegan desserts for them. Hubby chose one and wants to keep it but the other I’ll send with them.
Since starting Carni on Jan 12th I have had no desire to go off plan, no “woopsies,” just honest questions. This stuff has no draw for me but I want them to have it so it won’t go to waste
@FrankoBear when I went to my dr last year, I just went fully armed with all the info I knew I’d need to argue. He was a new dr to me and I didn’t know how he’d react to my “unconventional diet”. Fortunately he was relatively supportive, though honestly more apathetic (I made it extremely clear I would be no cash cow for him) and told me to keep doing what I’m doing.
@Shinita here is an example of what I mean by fat first. I ate some marrow and cartilage that I had taken from the bones I cooked yesterday (total of maybe a tablespoon or two of combination- probably half a tablespoon of marrow and 1 or so cartilage). Then I put a little less than 2 ounces of suet on my platter, along with my ribeye, eggs and liver. I started eating the suet and I got through about 3 bites of it and was like nope! I was done with the fat. I then ate the eggs. Then the ribeye. I didn’t try to separate the fat off the ribeye, I just ate it. Then the little chunk of liver.
I had started doing this approach when a few weeks ago, then slowly shifted out of it without realizing. I took my blood glucose 2 days last week after almost 24 hours fasted (and not having high fat/fat first omads) and my glucose was 111 and 97. Again, both times being almost 24 hours fasted!!! That should not be at all! Come Saturday, I returned to high fat/fat first. The last 3 mornings at 24 hours fasted, my numbers were 85, 87, and 81. So much better!
Welcome @Midnightmoon your days food look super cool. A lot of us on here eat a bit of cheese so I wouldn’t worry about that, if that’s what you were referring to when you said you weren’t quite there yet? I haven’t had cheese for at least a couple of months but only because I just end up eating more and more of it but prior to a couple of months or so ago I was eating it daily and had been doing so since I started this WOE November 2020. I would still eat it if I could control my cheese addiction. I have a dreadfully bad addictive nature. anyway I am sure you will enjoy joining in with this forum thread which runs, with different titles, from month to month. And people come and people go and then come back again and we’re pleased to welcome them back lol