Max carbs ≠ 20 for many (beyond first few weeks of keto)


#1

It would be helpful when referring to carb limits on this global, diverse forum to clarify “my max carbs” or “induction period” or “IR max carbs” etc. I often see some commentators referring to max 20 grams as if it is a monolithic rule - a generally accepted part of the ketogenic way of life for all - which it most certainly is not.

Nor is it substantiated by cornerstone LCHF/keto researchers the Drs. Eades, Stephen Phinney MD, Jeff Volek, and Dr. Atkins when pertaining to the non-insulin resistant or to the IR folks who’ve done years of keto recomposition and are able to proceed to “dietary recomposition maintenance” level then “lifelong maintenance level”. Nor does it apply to fat-adapted endurance athletes, who may do quite well on 150-200 grams of carbs based on a 5000 cal. intake of fat and keto foods.

To clarify: not disagreeing that the “induction period” of the first 2 weeks of keto is an “Under 20 Grams Carbs” proposition in order to get largely fat-adapted. This is what the LCHF/keto physicians I’m familiar with all advise. Atkins is net 20 grams Phinney & Volek is total 50 or less (25 grams or less net) and the Drs. Eades are 30grams net. Even that is a 20-30 range.

HOWEVER - after two weeks of initial fat-adaptation improvements, the Atkins Phase II, and the Phinney & Volek as well as Eades guidelines long term allow going up 5 grams daily carbs per week until one finds one’s ‘sweet spot’. Atkins up to 50 grams net (100grams total) for the Atkins Phase II. For Phinney & Volek 75 grams total or more, Drs. Eades 100 grams net or more - depending on health profile, etc. Then there’s Atkins further phases (Phase III and IV) with even more incremental carb testings and levels. Phinney & Volek point out that for certain metabolically healthy people, up to 150 total or more can work - and Dr. Fung focuses on the radical nature of small eating window and fasting more than actual carb amounts, etc. Last but not least, there’s general n=1 lazy keto, which may vary weekly and include fasting or not.

We all know that this wonderful forum has a diverse range of health profiles and hormonal statuses - that being said, there is no Max Carbs = 20 rule carved in stone for everyone.

The extremely insulin resistant (metabolically deranged and morbidly obese, esp when combined for a long time ) do well at less than 20 grams for YEARS or a whole lifetime for body recomposition and regeneration - this is true.

The non-IR and even pre-diabetic folks can have massive health improvements in the first 6 weeks of keto that reverse their health profile to “non-prediabetic” and confirm them as “metabolically flexible”- whereby body recomposition can percolate great along at 50-75 grams total carbs or even more.

My personal intake of carbs ranges varies, and is often 50 net per day, and I drink red wine a couple nights a week with certain foods. I feel GREAT and my body recomposition is progressing season after season.

I suggest aiming for precision language when writing about carb limits, framing context as personal or in reference to specific keto physicians and their recommendations - and not prescribing one’s personal prolonged induction period/-20 grams on all others as if it represents some universal keto rule, which it does not. :avocado: :coconut: :herb: :steakcake: :herb:

Otherwise, there are nuances that get lost, and that’s a cryin’ shame.

:dove:


Have any women eating a strict Keto diet with carbs around 20 (hitting all macros) not lost weight
Risks of too little carbs?
(Nathan Toben) #2

I am an ultra endurance athlete and have been searching for more voices that outline just this very point. While I am in the initial stages of fat adaptation and thus keeping carbohydrates around 20g (on good days), I imagine that I will time carbohydrate intake proportionate to the task of the given day.


#3

It’s fascinating stuff! AND there’s also the fasted endurance athletics thing!

If you haven’t checked it out yet - the Phinney & Volek book for athletes is an enormous resource - along with the books of Cristian Vlad. And the Run On Fat blog as well as the amazing film by the same name which documents the astonishing performance benefits of sugar free, fat fueling strategies for athletic performance.

I’m not an endurance athlete/triathlete - but am amazed at metabolic flexibility and the fat-fueled brainz that comprise 99% of body recomposition and strength-training vs. endurance as far as max leveraging of the other 1%. The book Body By Science, by LCHF-oriented physician Doug McGuff MD is also really interesting.


#4

I look at it as a “least common denominator” type of thing. It would be very difficult for someone not to be in ketosis if they limited their diet to 20 grams of net carbs. For fewer, it would be 40. For even fewer, it would be 60. And so on…


#5

Right - and - it changes dramatically for many after the first 2-6 weeks or 6 months (in my case). Which is part of the whole picture.

If the Drs. Eades and Phinney & Volek and Atkins all describe a frequent increase in carb tolerance with a LCHF/keto framework and I myself have experienced it - I think it can be most helpful to refrain from prescribing one’s personal practices as blanket prescriptives for everyone.

I guess I just love facts! And, caveats statements! The fact that a well-formulated ketogenic dietary lifestyle with continued body recomposition can mean 50-100grams or more of total carbs (25-50 grams net carbs, or even more) for lots and lots of people reflects the magnificence of hormonal health & healing and the efficacy of feasting days and/or sweet potato/taro chips or entire 60gram low carb almond meal pizza crust (though I prob couldn’t eat a whole one anymore lol)! Whereas blanket prescriptives (usually lacking any clarification that they are for LCD usage) may become dogmatic or short-sighted - or just feel like FB lol.

And whether those carbs come from processed food label counts vs. real foods is another interesting subject as processed food label reports may be somewhat dicey besides being less nourishing.

Nuanced, intelligent discourse on the other hand is very tasty. :wink:


#6

I can say from experience that when I was 20 years old, at the gym 90 minutes a day, biking everywhere, and following The Zone diet (108 grams of carbs per day), I was in ketosis. I’ve been chasing that feeling ever since and unable to tap in until getting total carbs under 40 at age 40. :slight_smile:

Not sure what numbers I’ll wind up, but it makes sense to me that people should know about the variety of experiences post-adaptation.


(Empress of the Unexpected) #7

Thanks - I feel like a hamster on a hamster wheel here. I know I’ve gone over many times, yet I’ve lost 15 pounds. I still want to be careful, but hate the “oh gosh, ingested 23 grams of carbs today” feeling. But don’t ever want to go hog-wild again. (Pizza, popcorn, pasta, chips.) I might add in a piece of fruit. Or rice.


#8

One thing I know for sure is that on an IF feast day - only very small servings of carby treats (like 2-3 tablespoons of buttered/fried rice with keto curry) requires a lot of keto clarity/self-love/self-care to consciously savor and celebrate along with the curry sauce - and those very same virtues are what keep me LCHF/keto for LIFE :purple_heart:

YES! @Regina


(Empress of the Unexpected) #9

More confessions - I started using Chronometer - and found out I was averaging 30 a day - which most sources say will do the trick! I just want to eat healthfully and enjoy life. And. Not. Eat. Junk.


(Empress of the Unexpected) #10

:joy:


#11

I order cumin rice when I carefully order take out dishes (lamb kebob, coconut saag, fried okra) from an authentic Indian restaurant (they use canola oil though along with some ghee) then I chill it and refry it (so as to make it more resistant so it gets to my colon and feeds the good bacteria, long story lol) and eat it. Sometimes have the modest amount of refried rice with some broiled chicken & veg.

However, someday when I have the time & energy to actually cook more and perfect my usage of riced cauliflower, I will definitely be making this:


(Empress of the Unexpected) #12

Yours are some of the most inspirational posts. I have the Slow Burn book arriving in a few days! You are also very balanced.


(Jane) #13

You just described my husband. He is not an athlete, but thin most of his life and only in the past few years developed a little pudge in the gut.

So unlike me, not IR, not much overweight - but wanted to support me since he does all the cooking when I am home (travel a lot for my job).

He lost weight quickly on < 20 carbs a day and had to up his carbs to stop his weight loss. I think he eats around 50-100 to maintain. More after he has fasted for autophagy.


#14

I’m curious about this too but for a different reason—I’m not trying to maintain, but I basically gave up “real” keto because I was overeating and gaining weight. Today I tried eating a ton of vegetables (ie lower calories). I ended up at 51 carbs. I wasn’t intending to stay in Ketosis, but maybe it’s possible.


(Jane) #15

If you are referring to resistant starches that feed the colon bacteria… I thought you had to eat it cold, and that re-heating it by frying turns it back to regular starch.

If this is not what you are referring to, then never mind!!! :smile:


#16

Yes, it’s what I’m referring to - from what I’ve read you have to chill the rice to solidify the starch - but you don’t have to eat it cold (though when I was a kid, I sure LOVED leftover rice made into cold sweet summer cereal/pudding w/ milk and sugar! Undoubtedly an unhealthy carb overdose, that!).

Frying the chilled rice apparently seals the starch for travel in the gut - but if the chilled rice is added to hot soup/broth/curry sauce it dissolves (not good, as it becomes regular starch)?

I use white basmati rice which is low glycemic - 1-3 times a week. Started it after reading up on microbiome stuff and wanting to take care of my good gut bacteria in the colon because apparently[these bacteria create a ton of butyrate for brain nourishment (and at much higher levels than getting butyrate from butter, which is commonly pointed to as a good source of butyrate, etc). And it can be boosted with just small amounts of resistant starch and veg carb fiber (and ‘high fiber’ does not have to mean high carbs!!!) Personally, I think all those born into industrial foods culture have microbiome disturbances that can and do require _some_carbs at some point, and may be greatly improved with the right RS routine as well as Ginger.

Microbiologist Norm Robillard’s books and website are interesting and very low carb oriented, also Dr. Grace Liu, a pharmacologist who’s made gut healing her main focus.

All of this also has to do with my efforts to shrink my midlife middle of course :wink:


#17

There are those that advocate for the fact that the carbs in non-starchy veg aren’t a concern - and I tend to agree - particularly when combined with decent servings of good protein and cooking fat. Then again, broccoli and I don’t see eye to eye these days… seems my palate likes it less, even when it’s buttery!


#18

Thank you for your kind words Regina! And, it takes balanced to know balanced :blush:

Hope you enjoy that classic book! The home strength training routine in it is great, and intense! :muscle:t3: Ab crunches though are now considered largely useless, (and can cause or exacerbate diastasis recti), so they can be ignored.


(Jane) #19

I read a lot about this subject a few years ago and was drinking a glass of potato starch (not flour) dissolved in water whenever I thought about it. Or ate cold mashed potatoes (which I live) or cold potato salad.

Interesting that you can fry the rice after chilling. My husband started freezing the rice before he stir-fried it because he read it would “turn out better” - nothing to do with resistant starch - but that is the way he always made it. Haven’t had any since I went low carb/keto last November and I sure miss his shrimp fried rice!

I am basically just trying to maintain so I can afford to experiment a bit. I think I will have him make that for me this weekend when I am home and test my breath in the morning with my cheapie breathalyzer and see what the results are!!!


#20

Yeah - only basmati rice for me doing the RS thing. That’s really very interesting about freezing it. I do love me some wild caught shrimpy fried anything really! I didn’t introduce RS until around month 6 keto when I felt 100% fat-adapted rather than 97% lol. So far so good - occasional RS + regular grassfed beef liver do wonders for my mental/emotional state.