Max carbs ≠ 20 for many (beyond first few weeks of keto)

#21

My biggest takeaway from this thread is that every “body” is different. With sufficient amounts of protein and fat, there’s no value add in carbs from a metabolic/diet perspective, is there? if anything, the need for carbs is emotional. The 120g of glucose that the brain needs is generated in the liver - any glucose the body needs is generated by the body. Everyone has a certain look they are comfortable with and amount of fat they would like to keep on/off. For someone like me, < 20 g carbs total works best, on most days I’m at < 10, but that seems because of incidental carbs.

(KetoQ) #22

Hi Mary –

I’ve been thinking about some of the same points you bring up about carb limits because of my own experience, which has been very successful, but on higher carbs.

I started keto on May 15 and am down 46lbs. I’ve been tracking my food and macros in Cronometer since May 31. Fitness wise, I’ve been very active. Food wise I’ve been very diligent as well. No cheats, no alcohol. I eat lots of salads and vegetables and occasionally add a bit of fruit to my salads as well.

On 56 days of data, I have averaged a little over 50g of carbs per day, which factors in eight days of zero carbs via extended fasts. On the days I do eat, I’m averaging 58g carbs, and not one of those days was 20g carbs or below. There are only seven days under 40g carbs, and only one of those were in the 20’s. Moreover, this month alone, I have counted eight days over 70g carbs and I am down eight pounds this month.

That said, my carbs are overwhelmingly green, leafy vegetables: romaine, spinach, brussels sprouts, zucchini, cabbage, tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers and nuts. Fruit wise, I do strawberries and am judicious about my use of peaches. So if you keep it really healthy, it’s possible to get good results.

Cheers!

#23

Well - there is a strong argument that gut health is an issue for most people raised in modern industrial culture who’ve decimated their microbiome with antibiotics as well as sugars.

There is also science to the fact that organ meats supply the full range of minerals and vitamins - and most industrial LCHF/keto folks are not consuming nearly enough organ meats.

Apparently a small amount of carbs feeds clostridium in the large intestine, and clostridium produces TONS of butyrate which nourishes the brain ketosis process. In recent years, the GI tract has been named the enteric nervous system, and has absolutely critical impact on mental health.

So, regardless of the fact that humans can survive on zero carbs - I think it’s critically important to recognize the science put forth by many cornerstone LCHF/keto physicians on reasonable carbs, as it relates to brain nourishment and mental health for some.

Last but not least - female biology is extremely different than male biology when it comes to metabolism, and many women (particularly premenopausal) are reporting that they actually do better with higher keto carb levels or more frequent meals - all with the LCHF/keto standards (nothing more than 100-150 total/50-75 net carbs from what I can tell).

#24

Indeed!

And, ideally everybody would read the original LCHF/keto physicians reference books and make informed choices based on science along with n=1 experiments. Personally, I’ve been delighted that my recomposition has chugged along great as my metabolic flexibility has soared. I’ve also experimented with low glycemic Resistant Starch (my dosage is 2-3 tblsp of fried white basmati rice), to feed my good bacteria in my large intestine, and have enjoyed the enhanced brain stability/stamina.

Am no fan of the S.A.D. and the non-foods sugar-based industrial foods way of eating - and really eat whole foods minimal carbs apart from RS dosing and the carbs in dry red wine.

Dr. Phinney & Volek, and the Drs. Eades, clearly recommend berries as ideal fruit, and I use them regularly in smoothies as Vit. C is necessary for collagen uptake. Or, I use pomegranate seeds frozen or powdered. The Romanian keto researcher Cristi Vlad writes about very small doses of dried goji berries (wolfberries) and their rejuvenating Vit. C medicine too.

And, as many of us know, Dr. Fung’s approach to turning around morbid obesity & diabetes is focused more on WHEN folks eat - limiting the eating window and also closing it for medically supervised fasting. His point is that body recomp is about hormone levels ultimately - though WHAT we eat does play a role, it’s somewhat secondary apparently.

Amidst a diverse global group with variant metabolic health, it sure is interesting to pay heed to the nuances along with the scientific foundations - I’m always learning something! :avocado: :coconut: :steakcake:

(J) #25

Very interesting thread! I have been Keto since May 14- so not too long. Not for weight loss either, but for other health issues. I am a 44 year old female. I actually just had surgery on Monday to remove my ovaries and Fallopian tubes for ovarian cancer prevention and am now menopausal, though am on HRT. I have generally kept my net carbs under 20 (total in the 20-60 range) to get my body fat adapted, though have had some special occasions where I ‘carbed up’ and was able to return to nutritional ketosis in <12 hours. To me this makes sense that I have become fat adapted. I haven’t had much appetite since my surgery, but have been eating to hunger and keeping my carbs low, largely because veggies aren’t extra appealing at the moment!

I am normally extremely active, so this enforced rest is interesting for me. :wink: It will be really interesting to see how many, if any, changes I’ll need to make to this WOE once I am recovered.

Please keep posting, Mary. And if you have any suggestions for women in my unique life-stage, I’d love to hear it!

#26

Congrats on rest!

I have no experience or info on artificial menopause - but do know that the post-surgery recovery you’re in is huge, and your liver and other internal healing processes probably will benefit very much from a very well formulated LCHF/keto way of eating.

Eat to satiety, and consider supplementing with Ginger capsules for max anti-inflammation, circulation, and digestive enzymes (its a natural NSAID, with same contraindications with certain things pertaining to statins/blood-thinners). Also, plenty of help comes from keto and EF 3 day water fasts for long term cellular health & healing - you can take comfort in that! :sparkles:

(Troy) #27

Interesting, I’m “ fruitless “ :joy:
As far as Food

But, I do bear fruit within my Faith :smiley:

Ok, interesting once again
I may re - introduce to change things up w the food🤔
Where do you get the pomegranate seeds ( packaged or just from the fruit ) and Powder from?
And what brand do you recommend for the dried Gigi berries?

Thank You

(Aimee Moisa) #28

All y’all can do whatever you want with your carbs but I am going to stay away from them because of the emotional issues I have, and I think I am going to talk to my old therapist about using very low carb-high fat nutrition counseling as part of the therapeutic process for binge eating disorder. In my life I have never had the take-it-or-leave-it kind of relationship I have now with food and that is all because I keep my carbs to just incidentals in veg and dairy. I feel as free as a bird now.

And confused about how I can suddenly fly. :slight_smile:

#29

Lots of organic pomegranate powder on Amazon - goji/wolfberries are very pricey but can be found in there too - or in your local ‘health food’ store.

Here’s to faith and bearing fruitful health and keto healing :blush:

#30

Congratulations brave bird!!!

Yes, for any with eating disorders and/or food addictions, it’s definitely a wise policy to keep carb temptations minimal/zero. The brain and palate have some extensive recovery processes that are ongoing for metabolic and psychological healing of compulsive food habits that pose high risks of self sabotage beyond the initial weeks/months of fat-adaptation. Best to feel very safe and freeeeeeeeeee! :dove:

#31

Ya, people definitely get locked into to a very specific way of doing keto and have a tenancy to think that’s the ONLY way this WOE can work. Most people understand there’s a difference when it comes to performance vs weight loss, but in my case which is weight lifting try telling somebody having issues in the gym to up their protein from 60g to 150g on lifting days or their carbs up to 30g and watch the insanity begin. Let alone if you recommend exogenous ketones or something.

(Jane) #32

I believe this also and seems to be overlooked by a lot of dieticians and health experts.

I can count on one hand how many times I’ve taken antibiotics in the last 15 years. When my eardrum burst and was draining fluid I was so grateful to have them! And glad I rarely took them so they still worked.

With all my global travel there is no telling what concoction of gut bugs I have now! Eating/drinking in Brazil and Chiba have left me with almost permanent soft stools. I guess better than constipation.

#33

Well written, accurate and terrific essay!

(Nicole) #34

I have known of one gentleman who went on multi hour bike rides a few times a week, and was eating over 200 g of carbs around those rides and still testing ketogenic.

You might want to look into targeted ketogenic diets or cycled keto diets. Ketogains uses both TKD and CKD.